Feminism or Cancer?

Bi0Hazard: Yeah I do support patriarchy.

Krazy: Which would mean that women want men to dominate them by their very own nature. This misses the point that society and institutions are what influences the human mind and forms it's views. Equality hasn't been seen the same in every society, there are many differences, which lead to different outcomes.
Yeah, they think they want equality, but they don't.
If they think they want equality, doesn't that mean they do? They choose what they believe, right? Or does their nature choose for them?
Yeah I do support patriarchy.
Do you believe patriarchy still exists in any way today?

Krazy: There's a big difference between "all in the mind" and socially constructed. Secondly it's you who's bringing the claim so it's your burden to prove. Third I did show some - that there have never been consistent definitions for those terms. I'll give just one example - the fa'afafine of Samoa.

I come at these issues with a belief that people have the right to be who they want to be. That's a form of self-empowerment and self-actualization. If you don't want to bring somebody down, don't force them to conform to something they don't actually want. Just like you wouldn't be totally happy if somebody forced you to renounce Christianity, I imagine, or to cut off your privates. I'm a big believer in empowering others instead.

Bi0Hazard: This misses the point that society and institutions are what influences the human mind and forms it's views
Yeah, it's called brain-washing. Which is like I said earlier, the fact that men want to be the leader in a relationship and women want to be the submissive one is so obvious that you have to be socially programmed to some extent to believe otherwise.

If they think they want equality, doesn't that mean they do? They choose what they believe, right? Or does their nature choose for them?
It's more natural for a woman to submit to her husband and the husband to lead his family than vise-versa. They may think they want something different because society or something tells them that they do, but it's not natural for them to have that. That's what I mean.

Do you believe patriarchy still exists in any way today?
Well, you live in one. The United States is mainly ran by men. The definition of patriarchy, all it is, is just men ruling society and women don't. And 90-some percent of government leaders in America are male. In fact, most of the world is. And that's how all of human history has been, besides maybe a few anomalies here and here. People get the sense that it's a bad word, but that's all it really means. And they live it everyday.

admin: There's a big difference between "all in the mind" and socially constructed
Not when society says "Your gender can be whoever you want it to be! Gender is fluid!" Then it becomes a state of mind and not hard fact.

Secondly it's you who's bringing the claim so it's your burden to prove.
I don't have to "prove" it. You know what a man should act like. You know what a woman should act like.

Third I did show some - that there have never been consistent definitions for those terms. I'll give just one example - the fa'afafine of Samoa
Looks like modern Sodom and Gomorrah to me.

I come at these issues with a belief that people have the right to be who they want to be.
I don't. Men should act like men and women should act like women, that's my belief.

Just like you wouldn't be totally happy if somebody forced you to renounce Christianity, I imagine, or to cut off your privates.
Yeah, because I see so many similarities between saying that men should actually behave like men and women like women, and force-converting somebody through physical torture into a different religion by cutting off their testicles. That is one of the most strangest analogies I've ever heard from arguing with people.

Krazy: Yeah, it's called brain-washing. Which is like I said earlier, the fact that men want to be the leader in a relationship and women want to be the submissive one is so obvious that you have to be socially programmed to some extent to believe otherwise.
Yes, brainwash is one possible way of saying it. I don't exactly like that term since it is widely thought of as a negative spin to the mind. Brainwashing is always happening, parents and society brainwash their kid (which is why kids tend to believe what their parents believe). For women to want to be submissive to men may be brainwash as well (since what people believe has been influenced by social aspects of society). Though you can choose what you believe without brainwash, it will be influenced by brainwash. What I disagree with is the "all views are brainwash except for what I believe" approach that you take.
It's more natural for a woman to submit to her husband and the husband to lead his family than vise-versa. They may think they want something different because society or something tells them that they do, but it's not natural for them to have that. That's what I mean.
Society is the product of human minds and institutions, not what you think is more natural.
Well, you live in one. The United States is mainly ran by men. The definition of patriarchy, all it is, is just men ruling society and women don't. And 90-some percent of government leaders in America are male. In fact, most of the world is. And that's how all of human history has been, besides maybe a few anomalies here and here. People get the sense that it's a bad word, but that's all it really means. And they live it everyday.
Patriarchy is a social system where men have social privilege. It need not be related to whether a man is running the country. Also, society is ruled by the government which is controlled with elected representatives that are from votes. In the U.S., more women have voted in many of the past elections than men. this may vary by area. There are women politicians as well, so women do have political power.
Whether men have social privilege in our culture today may be debatable, but feminism believes that it does and attempts to get rid of it, and they have been successful in their attempts. Egalitarianism is widespread.

Do you think women should not be able to vote?

Krazy: Sodom and Gomorrah are further proof that these narratives are not universal. You can claim they are "natural" but then you need to justify what that actually means and where your evidence is. Gender is part of identity, which is built of real elements. The thoughts we have are physical connections which have come about for reasons that can be scientifically examined.

I see a close analogy. Physical well-being is only a small component of well-being. Clearly you're so disturbed that women can vote, that you'd rather die of cancer. In sociology that's called a value judgment. So in truth your whole worldview is premised on your own system of social arrogance, imposing on other people who they are. If I forced you to not be a boy that would upset you as much as force converting would.

Bi0Hazard: No, I don't believe women should vote. They're too delicate and emotional to vote. They're frail creatures who seek security. There's nothing wrong with it, it's just that when deciding the politics of the country,

I don't believe all men should vote either, by the way.

Krazy: No, I don't believe women should vote. They're too delicate and emotional to vote. They're frail creatures who seek security. There's nothing wrong with it, it's just that when deciding the politics of the country, those traits can get in the way of making good governmental decisions.

I don't believe all men should vote either, by the way.