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Transgendered Individuals Should Use the Bathroom They Identify With

(PRO)
0 points
(CON)
WINNER!
5 points
LucasTheLlamaLucasTheLlama (PRO)

Individuals in the transgender community have been at a struggle for years.  Now that gay marriage is legal, there is more focus on us. The truth is, even before the trans bathroom issue WAS an issue, trans people have been using the bathroom they identify with for years.


My first argument is that I am aware you are trying to keep men out of women's restrooms, right?  Well, you will actually be putting men IN women's restrooms!


Here is an image of a trans woman on her website. While there are some who do not pass as easily, they are rare and usually start hormones eventually. I chose this woman because she defies the typical SJW transgender, and is actually libertarian.

Does she, born male, really belong in a mens' restroom?


Next, a photo of a trans male.  I chose him because he is someone who really helped me to understand what I am going through as a trans man.  (I didn't use myself for privacy reasons.)

http://cdn.images.dailystar.co.uk/dynamic/162/photos/944000/Ashton-Colby-posing-topless-after-transitioning-413944.jpg

Does he, born female, really belong in a women's' restroom?


Next argument is health.  Many transgendered individuals already do not use the bathroom, in fear of getting beaten up.  These people in return receive dangerous bladder infections, and sometimes don't even go to the doctor because of their dysphoria with their assigned gender.  This can lead to extreme kidney damage, and even death.  The number of trans infection, and even death, would increase dramatically is boys were told they could only pee in the women's room, and vice versa.


My next argument is chromosomes.  While males typically have xy chromosomes, and females typically have xx, there can always be mistakes.  It happens a lot more often than you think.  If chromosomes really define your gender, should a cisgender (not trans) man with xx chromosomes be forced to get a sex change?


My final argument for now is making a separate bathroom.  I do not believe transgendered people should use a "transgender bathroom".  This causes them to be singled out, and even targeted as well!  We saw what happened in Orlando, where a muslim terrorist targeted and killed many gay people, in a gay bar.  Imagine the shootings in a room full of transgendered people, such as a trans bathroom.  Since being transgendered is very controversial right now, a bathroom full of them is waiting to get shot.


The truth is, if I walked into a women's bathroom (I am a trans man) I would get kicked out, and screamed at.  If I walked into a transgender bathroom, I would fear for my life.  If I walked into a men's bathroom, nobody would say anything and I would just pee.



http://www.lambdalegal.org/know-your-rights/transgender/restroom-faq#Q6

Ashton's selfie.  Digital Image.  Myinforms.  Web.  7 August 2016.  <myinforms.com>

http://msblairewhite.com/

https://www.glaad.org/transgender/transfaq


Return To Top | Posted:
2016-08-07 02:07:42
9 years ago
| Speak Round
cooldudebrocooldudebro (CON)
First, let's define exactly what a transgender is.

"of, relating to, or being a person (as a transsexual or transvestite) who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth" (1)

Note: This DOES NOT mean that they need to have the genitals of the gender they want to identify with. They do not need hormone treatments. They can simply "identify" themselves as transgender without having the parts of the gender they say they identify with. This leads into my first case.

Case 1: It Isn't Something That Can Be Regulated

My opponent said that if we did not allow transgenders into the bathroom they identify with, we would be putting literal men into the bathroom of women. He then goes on to say they don't use the bathroom due to fear. He then goes on to say they already use the bathroom. All these contradictions not only make his case unclear; but serve to further make his argument seem faulty.

However, he does not understand that one can simply say they are transgender and go into the bathroom of their choice. For instance, a man who claims to be transgender can go into the female restroom just to peek on women. In fact, this has already happened.

"In 2012, Ontario amended its Human Rights Code — dubbed the “bathroom bill” by critics — to make “gender identity” and “gender expression” prohibited grounds for discrimination. Family advocates argued at the time that the bill would create a legal right for a man who calls himself ‘transgender’ to use rooms and facilities intended for women so as to exploit women.

In the United States, problems have already surfaced from allowing a man who calls himself ‘transgender’ to enter a woman’s area. As an example, in 2012 a college in Washington state decided it would not prevent a 45-year-old man who presents himself as a transgender “female” from lounging naked in a women’s locker room in an area frequented by girls as young as six. So “Colleen” Francis exposed his genitalia through the glass window in a sauna to teenage girls on a high school swim team. But police told one outraged mother that the university could not bar the biological male from the premises.

Jack Fonseca of Campaign Life Coalition told LifeSiteNews that it “didn’t take a brain surgeon to predict that letting men into women’s bathrooms and other private spaces would eventually lead to sexual assaults. I wish we didn’t have to say ‘I told you so,’ but Ontario’s party leaders and MPPs were warned that the transsexual ‘Bathroom Bill’ endangered women and needed to be defeated. Of course this lunatic law could only make it easier for rapists and peeping toms to prey on female victims while masquerading as ‘transgendered’.”

Calling for a repeal of the law, Fonseca warned that “If this dangerous law is not repealed, we will only see a rise in male predators attacking women in spaces where they deserve the right to privacy like bathrooms, change rooms and women’s shelters.” (2)


"A man who attempted to use a women’s locker room at a Seattle swimming pool told employees he had the right to use the bathroom of his choice under state law.

David Takami with the Seattle Parks and Recreation Department said a man arrived at the Evans Pool in Greenlake Monday afternoon and paid to use the lap pool.

Takami said the man then entered the women’s locker room and took off his shirt in front of a local girls swimming team, which had just finished practicing. Several parents and other women using the locker room became alarmed and alerted pool staff.

When staff members confronted the man, he left the locker room and went swimming.

When he was done, Takami said the man went back into the women’s locker room and was again asked to leave. The man resisted, telling staff members the law had changed and he now had the right to use the locker room of his choice, according to Takami.

The man was likely referring to a new rule created by the Washington State Human Rights Commission that requires buildings open to the public to allow transgender people to use restrooms and locker rooms of the gender they identify with.

The man left the pool and staff members didn’t call police.


A similar incident occurred in Olympia in 2012, when a 45-year-old biological male who calls himself Colleen Francis lounged naked in a women’s locker room, in an area frequented by girls as young as six. According to the police report an eyewitness stated, “There were girls 6 to 18 years of age and they were not used to seeing individuals in situations like this.” But the facility gave him the right to continue using its facilities as he wished.

Those who oppose adding gender identity to non-discrimination ordinances and civil rights legislation have long warned the ordinances would be used specifically for that purpose." (3)


Should young women and men (for the reverse happening) have to deal with the constant risk of being raped just to fulfill the desire of less than .3% of the population? (4)



Do you have any proof that exclusively not using the restroom they identify with can lead to all those effects?

We aren't talking about chromosomes here. In fact, the condition you stated is extremely rare. (5) Around 1 in 20,000 people have this disorder in the USA. That would mean for every million people in the USA, only 50 have this condition. (6) They have male genitals and male characteristics. This still classifies them as male.

Let me ask you a question. Does the needs of a small minority trump the needs a large majority? Should a very small group of people's comfort have prevalence over a very large group of people's comfort? Should me and 38% of other conservatives out there have to feel uncomfortable for .3% of people?  (7) Should these women have to be in constant worry of being raped due to this? If you answered no, you are against transgenders using using the restroom of which they identify with.

Transgenders can easily use their own restroom at home. The comfort of many trump the comfort of a few.

Anime OP:





1. http://tinyurl.com/3ex7rfo
2. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3426450/posts
3. https://winteryknight.com/2016/02/22/man-claims-new-transgender-law-allowed-him-to-change-in-womens-changing-room/
4. http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Transgender-by-the-numbers-2342726.php
5. http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/x/xx_male_syndrome/prevalence.htm
6. https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/46xx-testicular-disorder-of-sex-development#statistics
7 http://dailysignal.com/2015/01/09/new-poll-many-americans-conservative-liberal/

Return To Top | Posted:
2016-08-07 12:44:46
9 years ago
| Speak Round
LucasTheLlamaLucasTheLlama (PRO)
 Thank you for your time, you made some great points. 

I would like to address that you said men can pretend to be transgender and walk into the women's restroom.  While this is true, it would happen whether we implemented laws or not.  Some men especially can make very convincing women, and walk in.  While many men with obvious masculine features would not look feminine, there are many more who would.  Also, what is stopping them from coming in and raping in the first place?  Any man could run in, grab a girl, lock the stall and do whatever they wanted. 

Next, I noticed you want transgender people to only use the bathroom at home.  This would be a problem for people with certain conditions, or if they are rarely at home.  Also, you said I contradicted myself by saying many transgendered people don't use public restrooms.  I did not contradict myself, transgendered people are all individuals and are all different people.  Many of them do not use the bathroom out of fear, but many, especially those who pass easily, do use public restrooms. 

If a transgender man, born female, walked into the women's restroom with a beard, deep voice, and masculine physique, the cops would most certainly be called.  While family restrooms are an option, they usually only have one toilet and most places, and least where I live, don't have them.  Imagine if a transgendered person was at a concert, no family bathroom at the facility, and was about to urinate on themselves.  Would you want them to just pee in their pants, or go into the public bathroom that matches their gender? 

You also pointed out that "the comfort of many trump the comfort of a few", when you yourself want men walking into women's bathrooms just because they were born female, and vice versa.  Most real trans women look female, and most real trans men look male.

Also, on the note of sexual assaults, what is stopping sexual assaults from happening already?  A gay male pedophile can walk into the men's restroom, and rape a boy or another man easily.  A female pedophile can do the same thing.  Should we have separate bathrooms for different sexualities too?

In conclusion, what is in your pants doesn't define who you are.  Sexual assaults in bathrooms can happen whether we implement laws or not, and not letting trans people use the public bathroom can result in many different health issues (such as UTIs and even kidney problems).  Thank you for your time, and good luck.

http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/bathroom-break-controversy-is-holding-it-bad-for-your-health/
Common Sense

Return To Top | Posted:
2016-08-10 05:26:13
9 years ago
| Speak Round
cooldudebrocooldudebro (CON)


Rebuttal to Paragraph 1:
You assume all men have female characteristics. Many men could not pass for a female. That is just simple fact. The men in the stories I gave looked like men dressing as a woman. You could tell they were male. That's why the  security was able to spot them. The law would make it legal for any potential rapist to throw on wig; claim they're trans; and, go into the restroom. Without this law, these men in my stories would've been stopped before they ever got a chance to enter. You're missing the point entirely.


I'm pretty sure if this man tried to walk into the restroom (again masculine characteristics), everyone would know what's up. There would not only be major suspicion on any man who tried to do that, but, security and passerby would be on him like mosquitos to sugar water.

Rebuttal to Paragraph 2:
Could you give me statistics on how many transgenders suffer from such severe conditions that they can't wait to use the restroom? If you can't, you forfeit your point.

Rebuttal to Paragraph 3:
The irony is that is exactly what will happen with the idea you want to have! Men now can claim they're transgender and easily get into the women's restroom! It's almost like you're ignoring my case entirely! Irony is, most transgenders don't go through with the full surgery. This means that they still have a penis/vagina. They could easily go at home before the concert or (since the majority of trans people have characteristics of the gender they are trying to escape) use the restroom they were born with. The people should not have to bend for .3% of the population. If they want to use the bathroom, find an establishment with little to no people or go at home. The majority of transgenders feel worse or just as bad after the surgery for the few who chose to get it. How could bathroom access change anything? (2) (3)


"There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation, according to a medical review conducted exclusively for Guardian Weekend tomorrow"


"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."


Rebuttal to Paragraph 4:
Wow... Such a "No True Scotsman" fallacy...
"Explanation

The no true scotsman fallacy is a way of reinterpreting evidence in order to prevent the refutation of one’s position. Proposed counter-examples to a theory are dismissed as irrelevant solely because they are counter-examples, but purportedly because they are not what the theory is about.

Example

The No True Scotsman fallacy involves discounting evidence that would refute a proposition, concluding that it hasn’t been falsified when in fact it has.

If Angus, a Glaswegian, who puts sugar on his porridge, is proposed as a counter-example to the claim “No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge”, the ‘No true Scotsman’ fallacy would run as follows:

(1) Angus puts sugar on his porridge.
(2) No (true) Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.
Therefore:
(3) Angus is not a (true) Scotsman.
Therefore:
(4) Angus is not a counter-example to the claim that no Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.

This fallacy is a form of circular argument, with an existing belief being assumed to be true in order to dismiss any apparent counter-examples to it. The existing belief thus becomes unfalsifiable." (1)


As I said before, transgenders can be people who simply say they are male or female; without any defining characteristics making them the opposite gender.


Rebuttal to Paragraph 5:

The majority of rape is heterosexual. The majority of the people in the USA are heterosexual. (4) If we allow transgenders to go into the bathroom they identify as, it will also allow men who acts transgender or women to act as transgender (which is a lot more common) to peep or rape women or men (opposite sex) in the restroom simply by claiming they're transgender.


Rebuttal to Conclusion:

Using "common sense" in your sources is very disrespectful; as you assume me and anyone who disagrees with you does not have it. (This can be implied due to me not using your thinking on this debate) So, allow me to be just as disrespectful. The point went over your head, flew across the field, and hit a tree. Again, this will give rapists a better opportunity to rape. If this law passed and I had kids, I wouldn't feel comfortable, along with 38% of other conservatives, sending my future son/daughter into a public restroom. My examples I gave earlier demonstrate this perfectly. These laws can and will be abused. They can go use the restroom before they go out or suck it up and use the bathroom of the sex they were born as.


Music Video:




Anime OP:






1. http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/no-true-scotsman/


2. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth

3. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21364939

4. http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/02/16/lesbian_and_gay_population_by_state_washington_ranks_number_one_in_gallup.html

Return To Top | Posted:
2016-08-10 08:33:57
9 years ago
| Speak Round
LucasTheLlamaLucasTheLlama (PRO)
Thank you for responding, and good luck in this final round.

You say I am missing the point entirely, this is very ironic. 


"You assume all men have female characteristics. Many men could not pass for a female. That
is just simple fact. The men in the stories I gave looked like men
dressing as a woman. You could tell they were male. That's why the
security was able to spot them.
The law would make it
legal for any potential rapist to throw on wig; claim they're trans;
and, go into the restroom. Without this law, these men in my stories
would've been stopped before they ever got a chance to enter. You're
missing the point entirely."


In reality, this is what I said, and you apparently did not read it.

"While many men with obvious masculine features would not look feminine, there are many more who would."

I never claimed all men had female characteristics, but you can't deny that many do.

Next, you ask for a study on transgendered people who have experienced health problems from not going to the bathroom.  This is very respectable, and I thank you.  A study from the Williams institute interviewed a group of transgendered people.  54% of them experienced health problems related to not using the bathroom.  This is over half.  An even larger number, at 58%, reported they avoided going out in public at times in fear of having to use the bathroom.

Also, you say the majority of trans people have characteristics of the gender they are "trying to escape".  This is wrong on so many levels.  First of all, ever hear of HRT?  Hormone Replacement Therapy.  Most trans men and women appear as the sex that matches their gender due to this.  While they may still have male/female characteristics, these are usually very small and diminish within time and hormones.  Also, trying to escape?  As a trans man, born female, my gender was never female.  I was always male, but my sex just doesn't match that.

Gender definition:
the state of being male or female (typically used with reference
to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).

Sex definition:
either of the two main categories (male and female) into which
humans and many other living things are divided on the basis of their
reproductive functions
.

Next, you say they could go home before the concert?  I am trans, and this actually happened to me.  I was hundreds of miles away from home, and my hotel was really far away (it was a big event, most hotels were booked), and the concert was about to start.  Since I look 100% male, I used the men's restroom.  No questions asked.  If transgendered people are away from home, on a long trip, etc, and there are no family bathrooms, do you want them to urinate in their pants?  Next, you say use the restroom of the sex they were born with?  Take note of the trans man I showed in round 1.  You want a guy like him walking in the women's bathroom?  You are ridiculous.

I would also like to answer on why transgendered people are depressed and suicidal.  My entire life I was pretty much told not to be happy.  Whenever I would favor anything masculine, it was shoved down my throat that I am a girl and I can't do that.  I can't get that toy, I can't wear that shirt, etc.  If my parents were more open minded and willing to let me do what I want despite my sex, I would have been a 100000X happier child.  It seems like no big deal, but I had such an unhappy and depressing childhood.  This is why so many transgendered people are still depressed today.  Nobody deserves a childhood like mine, yet so many people go through it.

While most rapes are heterosexual, that doesn't change the fact that a man can still walk into the women's bathroom.  Is there some sort of invisible barrier from stopping him?

My final point is you keep bringing up that transgendered people should use the restroom of their biological sex, or go at home.  Going at home can cause all sorts of health problems, and most transgendered people who pass would have the cops called if they stepped foot into the restroom of their biological sex.

Case closed.
(Thank you for participating in this debate with me!  Good luck.)

https://thinkprogress.org/study-transgender-people-experience-discrimination-trying-to-use-bathrooms-34232263e6b3#.slxchtwsx
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sex
http://www.marieclaire.com/culture/g3065/transgender-facts-figures/

Return To Top | Posted:
2016-08-10 14:39:25
9 years ago
| Speak Round
cooldudebrocooldudebro (CON)
Rebuttal 1:
The irony is, you have yet to understand my arguments at all. I said that many men could not pass for a girl. This means the vast majority of men could not pass as a girl.

Your argument:
"there are many more who would. (Pass as a girl)"

Which is not as true as you may think.

Rebuttal 2:
There is such a thing as freedom of choice. If you do not choose to go to the restroom in fear, then you have to deal with it. I was born male. I did not have a choice in what I was born into. However, you had a choice in whether or not to pursue a transgender lifestyle. You could've easily chose not to get the surgery or hormone replacement therapy. However, you didn't choose to stay the way you are. As you know, many choices have consequences. This is one of those consequences. They could easily make transgender restrooms (even though they certainly don't have to). If you choose not to use that restroom or the restroom of your original sex, that's overall YOUR choice.

Rebuttal 3:
This debate about gender is a whole other debate entirely. However, I'm going to ask a simple question.

If gender is indeed so fluid and a social construct, why are there such a low number of people who identify as transgender/non-binary? Obviously, if it's as fluid as you say and is indeed a social construct, there would be more people identify as non-binary.

Oh, by the way, HRT for transgenders cause many health problems. This was article I'm about to source is written by a transgender.

"Blood ClotsThis is one of the biggest risks for male to female transsexuals. As many cissexual women know taking estrogen increases your risk of developing blood clots. This risk is greatly amplified if you smoke!!! If a clot does develop they can lead to all sorts of problems including heart attack, stroke and pulmonary embolisms (all of which can cause death). Also, because of the clotting risks you will be required to stop taking estrogen for a period of time before any surgery so make sure you disclose that you take it regardless of the reason for surgery. For example, I just had gallbladder surgery and had to hold off a week because they surgeon wanted me off my estrogen just in case. Better to err on the side of cation then end up dead!

Prolactinoma

A Prolactinoma is a type of pituitary gland tumor. They can develop as a result of estrogen therapy. While they are usually benign they can be dangerous leading to headaches, vision problems and even permanent blindness. If you take estrogen your doctor will monitor a particular hormone called prolactin. This will help them determine if something is wrong in your pituitary gland. Again, there is a low risk but certainly not a 0% risk. I know of at least one trans woman who has required surgery because she developed a Prolactinoma so it does happen.

Gallstones

Evidence shows that HRT can increase your risk of gallbladder disease and I can attest to it. I can't say with 100% certainty that my stone was caused by my taking estrogen but it sure grew fast once I started taking it. I also have a trans friend who has had her gallbladder out as well. Be very aware of this if you have a family history of gallstones.

Possible Risk of Cancer

This is a controversial topic so I will not go to much into it here. Some evidence says that HRT increases your risk of breast cancer while others say it doesn't. I will just say ask the doctor (like with all of these points) and know your family history" (1)

I took a look at your study. The sample is very small. There is around 50 people who were surveyed. This allows for easy manipulation of data.

That is only the beginning of it. I love how you disregard a lot of the examples I give you of trans people who look like their gender that they were born with; but here are more if you don't get the message.

Image result for transgender

Image result for transgender
Image result for transgender

Rebuttal 4:
This is not the case at all. There are many groups who were under more distress than you who had a lower suicide rate. Take the slaves; for example. Despite what horrid acts they endured, their suicide rate was very low.

"While some slaves did choose suicide, the rates appear to be surprisingly low. This is consistent with suicide rates for Africa and for people of African descent living in other areas of the world, and further supports the theory that a low suicide rate is an element of African culture. The overwhelming majority of African-American slaves chose to deal with their suffering through a variety of means, including resistance, external compliance and spirituality. When slaves did resort to suicide, it was apparently often in response to a deterioration in their circumstances or unfulfilled expectations. When the slaves developed dialog to address their suffering on an ideological level, they frequently did so through religious channels." (2)

If they can endure all that suffering and still not be as suicidal as transgenders, what are the transgender's excuse?

Rebuttal 5:
Again, the point flies way over your head. If they dress as a woman, the people and police can legally remove them from the bathroom. There is also pressure to not go in there due to it being against the law. If we enforce a law for transgender bathrooms, even men dressed as their gender can indeed still gain access to the opposite sex's bathroom just by saying they're transgender.

Rebuttal 6:
Their personal choice does not trump the comfort of conservatives. As I've shown, many transgenders do indeed still look like their sex.

Arguments Dropped:
Many Points About My Rape Argument DROPPED
"True Scotsman Fallacy" DROPPED
Transgenders Who Still Look Like Their Sex DROPPED
Letting Transgenders Using The Bathroom Won't Lead To Better Mental Health DROPPED
Examples of Where The Transgender Bathroom Law Exclusively Caused Perverse Actions To Occur DROPPED
People Can Simply Claim They Are Trans While Not Actually Being Trans DROPPED

I rest my case. With these many vital arguments dropped, it would not be wise to vote for Lucas. However, it would definitely be wise to vote for me.
Arigatou Guzaimasu!

Anime OP:





1. http://sillytranswoman.blogspot.com/2011/03/risks-associated-with-hormone-use.html
2. http://scholarworks.montana.edu/xmlui/handle/1/1654


Return To Top | Posted:
2016-08-10 20:10:52
9 years ago
| Speak Round


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