There Should Not be Unlimited Characters in a Ranked Debate

9spaceking (PRO)
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admin (CON)
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9spaceking (PRO)
Ah, it is the mighty Admin, the "Unofficial Beast Slayer"! He owns this website and thus must have good reasons for why unlimited characters are allowed...in ranked debates. However, I say, there are more negative effects than positive effects.

We will assume we're not talking about test debates, since those aren't exactly ranked or really determine elo skills.

The big problem with unlimited characters is, it is very unfair for the dude who can have more time to research, or be a faster typer. For example, as source [1] says, "a typing speed of 40 WPM (Words Per Minute) is considered an average typing speed". Assuming the person is in a 3-day time limit debate, and each day he manages to dedicate 2 hours typing his arguments to the debate, posting all his or her arguments right before time runs out, the equation of 40*120*3= 14,400 words in total.

But, as of today, the top speed is above 100 WPM, 2.5 times the efficiency of the person talked about above.

Even assuming this debater spends only half as much time as the man above, he will still be more efficient and able to type much, much more than the man mentioned above. On the other hand, with character limits, the two men will be forced to put typing within the limit of the characters. If the first man cannot dedicate time to type up so much characters, then he can limit the characters further. On the other hand the faster man can misuse the unlimited characters system to his own malicious intent, knowing full well that he can type at a "high speed", better than others and able to post massive arguments, leaving behind the other debater in the dusts.

2. Can't even read the debate

This argument is simple. Debates have to end some time. Reading 20,000 characters per round is already a hefty achievement, and considering the maximum rounds are 5, you could be reading up to nearly 100,000 characters! It would be awfully difficult to judge such a doggone long debate, and in addition errors will be more likely made due to having to read so much, the judges will more likely inadvertently miss something or misjudge the arguments. And as Murphy's Law suggests, "Anything that can go wrong will go wrong." [2] While this requires infinite amount of time, technically unlimited characters fulfills this law. Of course, you can never post "infinite" arguments, as you will never reach infinity, but if you only read 5 arguments within 10,000 characters compared to 100 arguments in one million characters, the latter will be way way harder to judge in an unbiased manner in comparison to the former debate.

3. Chances for hanky-panky

There has rarely been any misuse or trolling within normal serious debating with limited characters. This is mostly due to the risks within the debate; your arguments are only so long, the opponent can probably handle 10,000 characters worth of arguments in time, and if dedicated, easily reply with an argument just as long. If you try to sneak in a troll argument, it is easily spotted. If you try to do a Gish Gallop, you will waste valuable time as well as crucial character use within your argument. However, with unlimited characters, you could easily vastly spam the internet and babble on about a philosophical complex topic while easily smuggling troll arguments into them. Similarly, the Gish Gallop is also much harder to spot by the opposition, as well as much easier to support yourself. For example if I were to do a simple 3-round debate about God's existence (Is God more likely to exist than not?), here will be the difference between 10,000 characters and unlimited:

With only 10,000 characters (Assuming con is the gish-galloper):

PRO: I have BoP, blah blah blah, Con acceptance round one, last round no new arguments

CON: I accept blah blah blah.

PRO: 1. Cosmological argument flaws, 2. Bible testaments, 3. Error within evolution theory and Big Bang Theory

CON: 1. Cosmological argument is not flawed (Rebuts flaws with gish gallop evidence) , 2. Bible testaments are flawed (gish gallop one- sentence evidences), 3. Evidence of evolution and BB theory being true (Uses gish gallop photos and websites to try to prove them)

PRO: In conclusion my opponent is wrong, he uses barely any support for his rebuttals, used Gish Gallop fallacy, and I have shown God is more likely to exist than not

CON: In conclusion I have shown enough proof to debunk any likeliness of God's existence.

As you can see the above debate was relatively familiar and friendly, a "Standard" debate, although shortened, it still looks very good and we don't exactly see any tricks or hanky-pankies, and we can read as well as judge the debate relatively easily.

Now, for the unlimited debate, 3-rounds about God's existence (Con is still the Gish-Galloper)

PRO: I have BoP, blah blah blah, Con acceptance round one, last round no new arguments

CON: I accept blah blah blah.

PRO:1. Cosmological argument flaws, 2. Bible testaments, 3. Error within evolution theory and Big Bang Theory

CON: 1. Cosmological argument is not flawed.....spaghetti monster....scientific paper about the infiniteness of the universe, 2. Bible testaments are flawed because source 1 says blah, 2 says stuff, 3 shows that, source 10 shows Bible testaments are flawed,and scientific information backs it up blah blah blah, 3. Writes a huge 1,500 word essay giving full proof of evolution, as well as another huge paper on Big Bang theory he wrote in college.....

PRO: Fails to read most of arguments in time to reply, barely scratches them and only talks about them on the surface before reluctantly submitting his arguments, and only so as to not forfeit

CON: "Most of my arguments are not rebutted, I win."

You see, con is able to support his Gish Gallop with far better evidence, and in fact mix up some true scientific papers to support the false scientific papers. Pro could not possibly read them all in time, and con is able to copy and paste his papers he wrote all the way back in college, massive and extraordinarily difficult to even debunk a single evidence within his massive proofs. Therefore you see how unfair unlimited characters are, especially when it comes to tricks and hanky-panky. Once again, it is much easier to pull off a Gish Gallop if you have the available characters to back the false evidence up with serious scientific information.

4. It does not exactly help the debaters increase their wording skills.

Debating, is of course, about increasing your skills within researching and saying your information. However, the big problem is that with unlimited characters, you can rabble on and on about and finally get to the point after about 50 sentences, and still not worry about ever running out of characters. On the other hand, with limited characters, it is obvious that the debaters must learn to word themselves better, in a more concise way, so that they have room for sources, or room for other arguments and/or rebuttals. Again, those gigantic scientific papers I talked about, with unlimited characters you can just copy and paste, and since there is no point deduction for copying your own work, CON would unfairly win that debate. If I wrote a gigantic story, and talked about how the information supports a theme within my argument, then the judge would either run out of time before being able to vote, and I turn the tables, supposed to lose while tying the debate, or the judge just has to trust me and assume my arguments true. Again, this is very untrustworthy and depends on the debaters' integrity and honesty. And not every debater is trustworthy and honest.

Just to give you an idea of how darn complex the scientific paper could be, I'll paste down the massive massive story I wrote a long time ago. You can read it for entertainment but it's mostly for showing how unfair it can be and how hard it is to keep on reading on to find the part of the "scientific paper" that supports your opponent's arguments, and then try to rebut that part of the paper.

But first, before I forget; my sources:

[1] http://www.learn2type.com/typingtest/typingspeed.cfm

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy's_law

Okay. You can read the story now. Enjoy!

PROLOGUE: INSIDE THE GROTTO

Tulip, who was a plump, Brobdingnagian bird the size of a refrigerator, startled awake, curiously gazing at the interesting scene unfold before its very eyes.

"I see it! There it is!" exclaimed a shadowy figure concealed in the darkness.

"The Crystal of Life is here! We've finally found it!" shouted a woman with dark green glasses, who's position, was right beside the other person.

"NO! THOSE AREN'T FOR YOU!" A low, angry, terrifying voice boomed suddenly.

The couple pretended nothing had happened at all, still admiring the crystal.

"Oh, just look at the sight of it! Such a pity, a crystal like this would be stolen... but of course, we've waited a long time for our revenge, and now we finally can take over!" The woman smiled wickedly, adjusting her dark glasses.

"How beautiful....." he replied, delicately poking against the glass of the crystal. The magic inside it was released and their only escape route, the hole of the cave, smashed onto the ground with a loud thud. The couple was now trapped inside.

"You will be here for eternity, or give up!" The low voice came again. This time it sounded like a trade rather than a command.

"Now what do we do?" The woman asked, awfully frightened by the noise and the shut of the cave.

"Let's get the crystal first. We didn't come here for nothing!" The man answered, his smile faltering slightly. They began pulling hard on the crystal, but it didn't budge. The man took out a sharp knife and started cutting against the crystal.

"This will take care of it! We only want a small part!" He said.

The cave became mysteriously silent, as if concentrating on only the figure. He then banged the blade against the crystal, but nothing happened. Instead, his knife broke into tiny puzzle pieces right on impact.

"We'll be stuck in here forever!" The woman cried, her eyes widening and her mouth twisting into an ugly frown.

"Don't worry; I still have my cell phone." The man assured the woman, looking perfectly calm. He took out his phone and dialed 911, adjusting it against his ear. Unfortunately, he then was zapped by electricity and was stunned by it. He collapsed onto the ground and the woman's last hope had disappeared.

As the women was sobbing somberly and screaming with anger and desperation, Tulip's two eyes, deep into the cave, glowed with satisfaction. There was a great shriek of terror, a crunch of human bone, a roar of mightiness, and only silence left.

ONE: A BIG SUPRISE

The birds peeped happily and the sun glowered across the landscape. Lymphical strolled down the path, admiring the chirping birds, towering trees, and wildlife. He gazed at the blazing sun rising in the east. The vibrant colors of bright orange and pumpkin yellow began to rise. Rays of light brushed Lymphical's skin gently. A soft breeze rustled the leaves of a tall redwood tree. Colorful leaves fell from the trees. Bright colors from yellow to brown littered the magnificent path. Refreshing air blew past his face.

Suddenly, the sky began to darken. Slowly, the sun faded away. Silence and darkness enveloped the space around Lymphical. The chirping stopped, and the wind began to blow. Leaves smashed into Lymphical's face, and dust blinded his eyes. He turned and hobbled the other direction. Gloomy thunder clouds appeared above my head. Within seconds, the first drops of gentle rain fell. Within minutes, the drizzling changes to a BOOM and a BAM! The thunder roared, hitting the ground, lightning flashed, electrocuting the world and ceasing in front of the darkening sky.

The tempestuous rain was pounding hard against the poor innocent people of Portulaca Land. It wasn't even cats and dogs. In fact, if you really wanted to know, the phrase we should use is "Raining Elephants and Killer Whales"! Anybody who was still outside would be entirely soaked in the blur of splashing puddles.

Everyone was streaking speedily into their homes, or if they were already inside a shelter, they hid deeper and tried to ignore the thunder and wind thrashing around their land, bullying the buildings.

By the time Lymphical got to his house, he was so drenched that it looked like he had fell into the ocean and nearly drowned, although he ran his fastest.

He creaked opened his door with great difficulty and slammed it shut slowly.

He pulled himself onto his sofa, lamenting: "Oh, how dirty and wet I am! Maybe going outside wasn't such a good idea after all."

Just as Lymphical began to feel a little better, his naughty cousin, Franklin, suddenly bounced over to him and shouted: "BOO!" at the top of his lungs, right in Lymphical's face.

Lymphical wasn't expecting his cousin to be home this early, and this surprised him so much; he jumped out of his seat and slammed his face into the ceiling.

"Ouch! That hurt a lot!" He groaned, rubbing his head. A letter flew in from the window, and it opened itself, allowing a piece of paper inside flutter out of the envelope and into Lymphical's hands.

Inside was scrawled, in big, messy letters: "Save me! I am kidnapped by an evil villain!"

"What is this?" Lymphical asked to himself, not sure how to react.

Just then, the door opened, and a flagrant fire came in, saying: "Oh, I can help you on your trip there. I know a short cut." but Lymphical's reaction was as if the fire was malevolent, because the fire's expression looked very harsh and was burning all of his sofas and walls. Lymphical became furious and started jumping around and around on the mats and his floor to stop the fire. Finally, the fire went down as fast as it came and he calmed down.
"Ok, what just happened?" He said, trying to comprehend the situation. "Is this a prank? I do not like this at all! Stop this at once!"

Just when he said that, his cousin suddenly disappeared. Lymphical was very scared. Even though he abhorred his naughty cousin, he was still very worried. When he was pondering over whether to ask the fire or not, a voice, slithering like a snake, filled the air.

It said ghastly: "Get there..... Or else your cousin... and the princess.... shall be dead! I dare you!"

Lymphical sat there for a long time, open mouthed. He was overcome by the events that just happened. Then, he finally puffed his cheeks up with air and blew the air out. "W-where is my cousin? And w-who are you?" he asked, shuddering from the creepiness and emptiness of Franklin's disappearance.

"Let me explain. There’s this villain who kidnaps people randomly for fun, and he wants to see who is brave enough to save the princess." the fire said.
"No! I have nothing! I am not going!" Lymphical shook his head.

"Come on! Don't you like an adventure? My former owner made me with magic, so I could come in without harm!"

"All right, let's go!" Lymphical said reluctantly, too tired to give in.

"It’s still raining. I’m no longer magical!" the fire said, pointing his red fingers to the window. The rain was splattering against it so hard that you could have thought it was hail or rocks bounding at the window.

"No worries, my friend. I have an umbrella in my closet!" saying this, he walked over to his elegant small closet, right beside his TV and sitting on a mat. He looked over all the stuff in there. There were nickels, and candy, and pizza from last dinner, and even his little horse toy from Gorgy State. He searched and searched frantically, but he couldn't find the umbrella.

"It’s too messy in here!" he finally said after half an hour of searching his poorly decorated closet.
"All because of me, you will get there later. Maybe they'd be saved now if you just went there right now." The fire signed.

"Don’t blame it on yourself. It’s ok." Lymphical told the fire. The fire then looked at something and gasped, going upstairs.

"What's wrong?" Lymphical asked, following the fire, not noticing the water slowly mousing in. "Have I angered you? I am terribly sorry if I had done that."

"No!" The fire shook his head. "It's not that! It's the water! It's flooding your house!"

"That is such nonsense. I know the rain is big, but it's not big enough to flood this house. It's the highest point on land!" Lymphical said matter-of-factly, looking out of the window to make sure. "Yikes! You are right! It's coming up the porch and into the..." And he realized that the rain was much bigger than he thought.

He looked back down the staircase, finding his legs tingling. The water was already at his knees! Lymphical found it strange that his feet were no longer tired. Splash! Splash! The water went as he stepped. Wow, I wonder how high this flood will be. He thought. The fire jumped across the final stairs that lead to the attic.

"Finally, I'm safe!" It commented. "I will never be harmed up here!"

"Actually, you will be harmed. Based on this rate, the flood will reach here in 10 minutes' time. It is raining so hard, I hope it doesn’t rain for 40 days and 40 nights.” Lymphical observed.

"How do we get away from the horrible water?" The fire asked.

"I know! I have a boat in my harbor. It will float, logically, and based on the wind movements, the boat will arrive here in 7 minutes. We can climb up to the roof top!" Lymphical said.

"Wow, you know a lot!" The fire said.

"Of course I do! I'm a scientist." Lymphical bragged proudly.

The fire then started to grab the rope that lead to the top.

"No!" Lymphical shouted. But it was too late. The rope was kindled, so fast it was a magnet attracting metal, and it was gone, as if by magic. The fire looked down at the marble floor.

"I'm so sorry! What do we do now?" The fire questioned.

"I have a ladder. We can use it. The only problem is that it's downstairs." Lymphical said.

"I can't possibly go there. Please retrieve it! I don't want to die!" The fire begged, almost crying.

"Alright, alright, I will get the ladder for you." Lymphical grudgingly gave in.

He then walked back down the stairs, finding the water already at the first step. He wade into the water until it was neck high, then he dived down.

The cold instantly zapped Lymphical awake, sending his eyes flying open. Luckily, Lymphical stood up in time, and fumbled in his pocket for something.

Lymphical frowned. There were only two pieces of circular glass and a rubber. Suddenly, a light bulb went Bing up on his head. Aha! I can invent a goggle with these tools! Carefully measuring the distance between his eyes, he tied the rubber to the pieces of glass. Examining his new invention proudly, he put it on.

"I'll call it the Emergency Goggle." He said. He took a big breath, and swam back down into the cold rain water. He used big strokes, going as fast as he could, for time was running out, and oxygen was also running out of Lymphical's lungs.

Now, where could I have put that ladder? Lymphical asked to himself, swimming from the living room to the kitchen. The water was smooth and calm.

Your pain will all be healed. Stay here, yes, stay here! The water seemed to say. Oh, how much he wanted to follow the water's command!

No, I must get the ladder to save the fire and myself. He reminded to himself. Just then, he saw a glint of metal in his garage. He went inside, finding the light still open.

He squinted, barely able to make out what was what. He recognized the ladder he had used many times. He picked it up, but it was much harder to do that, considering he was under water. He swam back using all his energy, but he had to keep stopping because he was too tired. Come on, Lymphical, rest, rest in here. Forget everything! The water hornswoggled. For a moment, it was as if Lymphical was the water, swaying with the current, letting it slide over his hands.

Oh no! Lymphical suddenly remembered. The water is magical! Don't fall for it! Clenching his teeth, he stroked faster and faster. His lungs were burning. He thirsted for air. The water rose like an escalator, as if never letting Lymphical swim to the top. Finally, after a moment's struggle, Lymphical reached the attic in time.

"Here it is...." Lymphical gasped, putting the ladder down on the dusty attic floor. He lied down on the floor, closing his eyes for rest. He then realized that nothing was getting the ladder. Very catawampus, Lymphical looked around. The fire was gone! Instead, there were boxes stacked on top of each other. Lymphical, out of his instinct, started climbing the boxes that lead to the roof of his house.

"The water reached too high up!" The fire explained when he saw Lymphical's head poke up. "Sorry... I didn't really notice the metal boxes in the corner."

Lymphical nearly fell down back to the attic floor when he heard this. He was outraged. "I monish you: Never ever do those kinds of thing again."

"Here's the boat!" The fire cried out. Getting in first, it waved its hands and said: "C'mon, let's go before the water gets too high!"

Lymphical stared at the fire at a while, and then he finally stepped in.

"Alright, let's go. But I don't know how to get to the island!" Lymphical said truthfully.

"I know the way." The fire winked.

"How do you know?" Lymphical questioned.

The fire then paused, not sure if it was to tell Lymphical or not.

"My maker put that permanently in my brain." The fire said. "And many other secrets I shouldn't have known."

TWO:THE NOTORIOUS VILLAIN

Somewhere in a dark, small room, a voice said: "Ha! They are foolish! They shall never make it through the journey!"
"No! They will! They will save me! Lymphical cares about me! I'm his cousin!" Another person exclaimed.
"Humph! Just watch the show as I make it more interesting......"

************************************************************************

After a while of rowing, Lymphical finally saw a misty body of land.

"Oh, I can see the island already! I bet this is it!" He said, pulling out a small metal pot. "I was so bored; I made this out of partial of the boat!"

"Oh no, I also see one of those candy bodyguards. They are made of stone rock candy and cannot be harm by anything except for fire."
"You do know very much for a magical fire."
"Just watch me!" the fire winked.
But just when the boat was about to get to the shore, there was a big tsunami coming up, right in the middle of the boat, slicing it in two halves.

They flew out of the boat, the flame shrieking: "No!!! Not Water!!!!" as they fell into the dark water. Just at the last moment, Lymphical put out his metal pot, and as if in slow motion, the dropped into the pot.

"I knew this would come in handy," Lymphical grinned, "I call it the Fire Saver!"

"Oh my!!!" the fire exclaimed, hyperventilating from being so close to water. All he had to do was to stretch his legs and he would go out like a candle.
"Hmmm.... we have a problem here." Lymphical said. "Wait.... I got it!" and so, he grabbed at the fire. "Come on, get into my hands!"
"No way, I am not going to touch your hands. They’re filled with dirt!" the fire complained.
"Or would you rather touch water?" Lymphical questioned, fingering his time stopping machine. It was an obvious answer; because you would rather get your hand really dirty than dying. And so, the fire closed his eyes and reached for Lymphical's hands. A second later, he was released, and he landed on the shore safely. But Lymphical was still stuck in his position, so he pushed the button, landing in the water with a humongous splash, sending water everywhere, nearly sending the fire to his doom. However, Lymphical's hands were a flashing red, burnt skin trailing everywhere.
"Hey, watch out!" it said.
"Sorry, I can't control it." Lymphical apologized.
Something rose up beneath him until he was about 10 feet high, on top of the something. He gulped, and then he looked down.

He was sitting on a giant sea serpent. Roaring loudly, the gigantic monster larruped, trying to get Lymphical off its neck, but it was unsuccessful, although a normal person would've fallen into the water by now. Lymphical had a steady iron grip, for he had traveled with a cowboy, and you know what cowboys keep that you have to avoid. But he was no normal person. He had ventured in dark caves, went through the Fare Kagyu Dessert, and saw through creatures others have never seen before. Yet, he had never seen a sea serpent, and he had no idea what to do. His hands were hurting from clinging onto the rough scales of the serpent for so long.

"Don't worry, I know a weakness!" It was the fire that spoke. It walked up to the candy bodyguard, who was savoring a jaw-breaker.

The fire suddenly flared and the bodyguard started, running across the backyard, screaming with fear at the top of his lungs: "Help!!!! There's a fire in the backyard!!!"
Meanwhile, inside the evil guy's castle, the villain who kidnapped many people frowned at the sight of his protector running from a magical fire.

He scowled, and mumbled to himself: "Huh. I never knew that. Candy people afraid of fire? What next?"

After the candy bodyguard stopped jumping around and saw that it was a magical fire, not normal fire, he turned around, and said: "Ok, now what do you want?"

"I need your club." The fire demanded its hands on its hips.

"Ok, fine, just don't beat me up with it." The candy bodyguard said grudgingly, setting his big club in front of the fire. The fire put it in its powerful hands, yet it did not burn. He started singing the first few lines of “Twinkle Twinkle Little Star” and the serpent turned to head the fire's way, seeming to calm down with the music.

What are you doing? Lymphical mouthed at the fire.

The fire just eyed Lymphical back, as if saying: Don't ask about my singing, I know what I'm doing!

The fire then walked up to the serpent, and as the serpent realized that it wasn't any harm, so it swam closer and closer to the fire, until the fire could easily touch the serpent. Slowly, it swam down into the water with confidence. When the head was just above the water, the fire swung his bat at the serpent and the serpent's head lay down on the ground. Lymphical walked toward the shore, using the serpent's neck as a bridge.
"You beat the serpent! You saved my life! Thanks a lot!” Lymphical said, relieved that the conflict was over.

"Oh, but you already saved my life twice!" the fire said, becoming more red.

“Anyways, let's go!" Saying this, the professor and the fire walked confidently into the evil guy's castle.
"Evil villain, your plans are ruined! Your days of kidnapping people shall be over!!!" Lymphical said, kicking down the door of the castle. "You're busted!"

But, what Lymphical saw was not at all what he had expected. Sitting in a wooden chair was a girl, right next to a cage that locked Angelina, who was yelling and screaming. The girl twirled with a key that would unlock the cage. She was as beautiful as a Hollywood star. Her thick, wavy, long black hair gracefully falls down and encircles her face.

Her large hazel-green eyes, remind me of the grassy land on a bright, sunny day. Her curved nose gives her a little girl look. Her mouth is a small mouth outlined by puffy lips that she often accentuates with glossy pink lipstick. When she smiled, white teeth brightened up her whole face.

Lymphical stared open-mouthed at the girl. The girl was so pretty that Lymphical was stunned. Lymphical had never seen such a beautiful person in his life.

The girl laughed. "You've come close, but you'll never be able to defeat me!!! The author promised that he'll keep on creating problems for you!"
Lymphical and the fire gasped unanimously as she made her declaration.

"How... how dare you accuse the author of helping you? He can change the story whenever he likes! He is the demiurge, for goodness sake! You can never force him to do anything at all!!"
"I have his sister in my hand.... Oh, here comes the rescue!" and just when she said it, a helicopter appeared, and she climbed onto it. "Goodbye!!" she said, waving to Lymphical and the fire.
But just then, she realized something in terror: Franklin, Lymphical's cousin was still trapped in her dungeon. "Stop the helicopter!" she screamed. "I need his cousin!"
Unfortunately, Professor L. and the fire already got the key

From the security guard and opened the jail door. "I've had enough of this dirty jail!” Lymphical’s cousin, Franklin cried. "You obsolete evil villain, we will obliterate you one day!"
" Just send me to somewhere safe, somewhere no adult will ever find!!" the villain said to the helicopter pilot.
"Should we follow him?" Franklin said.
"Yes!" the fire said. They ran and ran, but the helicopter was too fast for them. It was out of sight soon.
"We don't know where to start! Let's find a magical wizard first. Maybe magic is restricting adults to come." Lymphical suggested thoughtfully.

THREE: THE JOURNEY

"Are you sure about this? I'm already bored. We'll never find the correct platform! We're not wizards!!"Franklin exclaimed.

"I am totally confident that J.K.Rowling was correct about the barrier. See? It’s right there, not in the middle and slight right." Lymphical protested.
"I'm still not convinced that Harry Potter is the right person to destroy the evil guy. I mean, he was only defending himself to kill voldemort. Besides, it's been about 30 years since that happened." the fire said.
"Hmmm.... you are right about that." Franklin pointed out. "Well, we got nobody else, right?"
"I only read the Harry Potter series, so this is the only place we can go to. Besides, maybe he knows a few powerful characters that can help us." Lymphical said.
So they stood quietly, waiting along the lanes, ready for the train that was coming. Suddenly, there was a rumble, and the station shook. People started to panic and run around randomly, for even wizards could not stop an earthquake. But it wasn't an earthquake after all. It was a nine-foot tall green troll, slobbering and looking around, lifting up the rooftop of the house.

"HAHA, I HAVE FOUND YOU!!!" the troll bellowed. “SHE WAS RIGHT, I COULD FIND YOU HERE! AND NOW I AM HERE TO CAPTURE YOU SO I CAN CLAIM MY REWARD!!!"

The wizards were baffled at the situation. None of them knew what the troll was talking about. But Professor L. knew. He knew that the evil guy was revenging, but not himself. He had to think fast, or he would be captured and be killed as easy as an ant. But his mind was blank, and he was stuck in the spot. Slowly, as if in slow motion, the troll's giant hand slowly moved down toward professor L., the fire, and Franklin.

But, just when the troll's hand was about to grab them, someone in the crowd shouted: "STUPEFY!!!" and the troll was thrown backward, landing in the soft lawn grass behind the building.
"Who is this???" Professor L questioned.
"It is I, the one you were looking for, Harry Potter!"
"Oh, goody, thank goodness you’re here!" Lymphical's cousin remarked. "Now, do you know any good person we could seek to help us out?"
"Oh, I am terribly sorry. I cannot help you. I don't know anybody who could help you. Oh, such poor innocent people having to save the princess... I also heard of the event. Millions have tried, but they all failed badly. Maybe you can speak to him, and make a deal."
"But we don't know where he is! We’ll never find him!" Franklin bawled.
"Hmmm... what did he say when he escaped?"
"He said that he would go to a place no adult would ever find!"
"Oh, I seem to know such place. It's called Never Land. So wonderful, as Julia A. Fletcher Carney has said: 'little drops of water, little grains of sand, make the mighty ocean and the beauteous land.’" Harry's eyes brightened with wonder.

They went on hurriedly, as if they wanted to chase their shadows. They kept on flying, eager to make it to Never Land in time.

They had all made a big preparation to transform in their child self’s, and even though Lymphical's cousin and the fire were still considered children, they still made sure that the magic would work and they could fly as soon as they had fairy dust. But finding fairy dust was very hard. In fact, it was merely impossible to find it in Particular Land, because the caves all have been evacuated and the water had been cleared. All trails of fairy, if there had been, was all gone, as if there were none at all. But luckily, Lymphical had kept a few fairs in his glass jar, and even though they were weak from the experiments Lymphical had made, they still produced enough fairy dust to keep them in the air.

They were half way there when they relieved that morning was coming, and they were not going to make it. They were going lower, and lower, until they could easily touch the water. It was so vetoes outside that Lymphical, Franklin, and the fire thought that the wind might blow them away, or worse, into the water. Just then, Lymphical pushed a button and rockets appeared behind them, and they flew back high up. Lymphical winked at them, and then faced back front.

"Wow! It's just as I imagined! The birds, the land, the soft grass... I just can't wait to see peter pan!" Franklin said excitingly.

"Let's just hope that the evil guy hasn't tricked him yet." Lymphical said worriedly.

They walked on, and then they saw a huge tree house.

"This must be it!" the fire concluded. "Come on, what are you waiting for? Get inside!"

So, they climbed the ladder up to the tree house, with the fire having difficulty doing this because he was afraid of burning the tree down.

"Here, have some rubber gloves, they're fire proof!" Lymphical said, throwing the fire a pair of gloves the color of the fire.

"Thanks a lot!" the fire said.

They went inside, and they saw peter pan, right inside, with the person they didn't want.

"Hello there, young friends! You're new, aren't you! Well, come here and meet my new friend, Lacy Drano!" Peter Pan greeted welcomingly, waving his hand at the new comers.

"Hey, we know her!" Franklin said. "She's our friend. She got here faster than us by a lot, and we had to keep up."

"Um, yeah, these people are my friends." Lacy said, grinning.

She shot Franklin an evil look, saying "I will revenge.... eventually." Franklin acted as if nothing at all had happened and everything was normal.

He smiled, then he said: "All right, Peter Pan, what shall we do?"

Peter Pan replied: "Of course, let's go on an adventure! Quiet everybody, this song has to be clearly heard for the magic to work!"

Peter pan then sang: “Where shall we go?

To the mighty dragon ho!

What shall we meet?

Fleets of pirates, deep heart-stopping chasms, and steep tall mountains!

We shall hand on high cliffs,

We shall explore petite caves.

Take us! Magical tree!

Take us! To parochial trails,

To where the bondage live!

We shall face all danger,

The sly, the evil,

The big, malicious,

The meticulous people,

Never fear, poor people, we are here,

To save you all!" and just like that, his song ended, and the world outside of them seemed to swivel around. It was so fast, the trees became a blur. The wind blew harder. Then the tree vanished in a split second.

************************************************************************

They opened their eyes, and they all went by to the window to see where they had gone to. But it looked exactly like where they just were, except there were more trees.

"Here we go, adventure!" cried Peter Pan. "Oh, may I ask your names?"

"My name is Franklin." lymphical's cousin said.

"My name is Lymphical, and it is nice to meet you, Peter pan." Lymphical greeted.

"I am the fire!!!" the fire said, sparkling, nearly setting the tree house on fire.

"Watch out! You’re going to burn my house down!" Peter Pan warned. He then led the children down the ladder and out. "Wow, it looks like it's a forest out here! I wonder what we'll find in there. c'mon, let's divide. Lymphical, you go east. Franklin, you go west. Fire, go south! And Lays, you can come with me to the north."

And so, they followed his directions and went where they were supposed to. Lymphical met a Rocky giant, and he had no idea what to do, so he just ran away. Franklin met a water giant, which kept on splashing him until he was too annoyed and just ran away too. The fire met a vine giant but could not burn the giant and the fire got really frustrated and ran away. Peter pan and Lays met a big normal giant, and they tried to use the arrows peter pan had with him, but the giant was too powerful and overcame peter pan and Lays, and they ran away too.

Finally, they met in the middle, all running away from their giants, and they all bumped into each other. They laughed, then they had imaginary dinner, and they all ate the dinner happily. Then they went to sleep in imaginary tents Peter Pan made.

When midnight came, Lays woke up and tip-toed his way to Lymphical's tent. He then tied a rope around Lymphical. He did the same to the cousin. He then threw the fire into the cold ocean, and from that on, there was no more fire. At last, he put peter pan into the tree house and tried his best to mimic his chanting voice, and it worked. Peter pan would not know how he got there, and when he did, it would be too late.

***************************************************************************

"Phew! Yesterday was fun, wasn't it!" Lymphical said to himself as he yawned and stretched. It was then that he realized that he was tied up with Nylon, the strongest rope in Never Land. In fact, it was strongest in every single place Lymphical had ever visited. Lymphical was very worried. He then yelled at the top of his voice: "HELP ME, PETER PAN!!! I'M IN ROPES!!!" but nothing happened. He then went outside of the tent, and that was when he saw his cousin, tied up with a rope just like him. Franklin shook his said sadly, and then he said: "The fire is dead. The villain had thrown him inside that ocean over there."

Lymphical's eyes widened, then the world around him started to spin and the trees grew smaller. He then took a deep breath, and then raised his head. He looked around, and then he saw the one he was looking for.

"What do you want? If you really want to see who wants to save the princess, why don't you ask a knight? Are you too cowardly?" Lymphical spat at Lacy.

Lacy said: " I like having a prisoner. Oh, and have I told you the real identity of the princess? She isn't a princess at all. She just calls herself that because she's so spoiled and snobby. She's actually Angelina, the sister of the author!" saying this, lightning boomed right on the ground beneath him.

"Whoa, watch out, author. If you kill me, your sister will never be freed. And you cannot do anything to stop it." Lacy said calmly.

"Yes he can! He can do anything!" Franklin exclaimed.

"Ha! He must follow my orders, because I have his sister in my hands. Well, how about this: I give you one chapter to get the Crystal of Living and free Angelina!"

"CHALLENGE ACCEPTED." a voice filled the air.

"I'm not done yet. You have to write this chapter with no "E"s at all."

"THAT IS CRAZY!!! NO E??!! THAT'S THE MOST USED LETTER!!" the earth shook, and trees fell into the gap the earthquake made.

"Oh, but you have to follow me, or your main characters will die." the flagitious Lacy smirked. "As everyone knows, protagonists never die, and if they do, then it's not a story. And you want to make a story."

"YOU.... YOU!!! FINE, BUT LYMPHICAL AND FRANKLIN HAS TO BE FREED FIRST."

"All right, it makes no difference." Lacy then went over and untied the ropes.

"OK, READY?"

"10...."

"I'm not ready yet!" Franklin said.

"9...."

"8...."

"Yikes! This is our last chance to ever say 'e's!" Lymphical said hurriedly.

"7...."

"6...."

"5..."

"Argh, why don't you go faster, this is taking forever!" Lacy said impatiently.

"4...."

"3, 2, 1, AND..........................."

"ZERO!!!" and with that, a button with "CHAPTER BREAK" printed on it was pushed, somewhere inside a dark room.

FOUR: LOOKING AT BARS

"Now what is this about?" Lymphical said.

"This isn't too hard." Franklin said.

"Oh, but doing things is much too difficult for you." Lacy said, laughing.

"You can do as much as I and Lymphical can." Franklin said, frowning at Lacy.

Franklin holds his hands with Lymphical's, and Franklin starts to walk away just as Lymphical stops him.

"Stop walking!" Lymphical said. (I know, too much 'said's. Sorry!)

Franklin, looking at Lymphical, said to him: "Why should I?"

Lymphical mimics a sound of a bird. Instantly thousands of birds fly to him, and chirping sounds fill up Franklin and Lacy's brain.

"No way, Ang is not going to go out of Lacy's hands, just as this bird, and all birds too!" Lymphical said. "Without you know what, it's too hard."

"Why don't you fly back?" Franklin asks.

"I know! I got a Fly-o-tron 2000, strap it onto your back, and watch stars fly by quickly!" Lymphical said.

Franklin put his hand on a Fly-o-tron 2000. "This is amazing! I fancy gizmos, you know!" And Franklin straps on a Fly-o-tron, as Lymphical said to.

Just as Lymphical and Franklin start flying, Lacy slaps a hand-cuff on Lymphical's and Franklin's hands.

Lymphical scowls. "What is this about?"

Lacy smirks, and says: "I didn't say you would always go out of my hands! Now that Goodwin is not looking, you will stay down in my jail until Doomsday! Ha ha ha!"

Lymphical thinks: I cannot stop him! Just go with him. So, Lymphical finally quits his plan to bypass Lacy.

As if Lacy could know what Lymphical was thinking, Lacy guffaws until Franklin finally stops Lacy from choking.

"Ah, my jail!" Lacy said. "This is a gratuity for you! First to go in my jail, although you don't go of your own volition."

Lymphical grunts, and walks into Lacy's jail. Franklin looks back, trying to dillydally, but Lacy shook Franklin's hand-cuffs, and Franklin slowly, and grudgingly, as if in a stroll, tracks his way to Lacy's jail.

"I know you abhor this, but I will stay and guard you!" Lacy says.

I was looking at my protagonists, and I got cranky so much that I almost rip apart my story.

"This has got out of hand. I shall go in!" I avow. I put in all of my writing magic, and fanatically, fall into my story.

Birds chirp. Mosquitos buzz around. Music is playing. It is so good, I thought. Out of curiosity, I sat up abruptly.

"Huh. I don't know this part of land. That's unusual." I said.

A Crowd of Mortals! I thought.

That was what I call non-protagonists, and I didn't want to throng at producing what you call it-- Oh, Johns and Joppa and Andy, and humans all around us. That was why I'm popping into this story. Couldn't think of a guy so good that I wouldn't win him in a match. But I, I know all about "I". I- So many crazy ability I could do- Fly, Bombs from World War Two, and Soap foam. Hmm.... Soap foam isn't that good.

Anyways, mortals surround this guy I can't stand- sings crazily, and hands go into a spasm.

"Ok, what is going on?" I said.

Music stops, and mortals spin around.

"How much I told you, stop that instantly! Jack Mayonar is singing! Famous, famous, you do not know how!" An old man snaps.

"Sorry, but I'm lost." I say, trying to look small but showing angst and anxious.

"Go away!” Mortals say.

I, slipping away, frown. I look around, and saw a cross. Aha! I know that cross! I instantly know that Lacy's jail is north of it. Don't ask why, but I don't know who Jack Mayonar is. No, didn't want him to stay in my story. But Lymphical and Franklin has to go out of Lacy's jail. Now.

Clocks go "boom!" as I walk into Lacy's jail. Lacy is snoring. Good, I think, just as I thought.

Frankin sat up. "Wha--?"

" I am Goodwin, author of this story." I said, "Acid. I bought along tons, but I don't think I'm using too much, am I?" dripping a lot of it onto bars that traps Lymphical and Franklin. "Aha! Now go!"

So Lymphical and Franklin, ran out of Lacy's jail. But, Lacy stops us, surprisingly, just waking up from his nap.

"Stop right in your spot." Lacy said. "Ang is still in my hands. Find a crystal you may, and you shall go!"

"Ha! Too common in this world!" I said, putting out a lot of diamonds and gold and stuff.

"I'm afraid that's not what I want. I want Crystal of Living, and I want Uno Crystal, lucky for you!" Lacy said.

"NOOO!" Lymphical and Franklin said unanimously. "Not that crystal, from Pro-Loug! That bird will kill us!"

Chuckling, I said: "My bird? Tulip? It won't hurt a fly!"

Lymphical and Franklin both do nothing, and walk backward.

"So I walk first, right?" I say.

"Ok, why not?" Lymphical says.

"You know, that is actually my bird." I say, pointing into Pro-Loug grotto, which two big pupils show. "It's small, comparing it to Mr. Lollipop."

"You call that small? And who is Mr. Lollipop?" Franklin said, afraid. "You concoct that bird. Why?"

"Don't worry. Tulip won't hurt you. Out you go!" I command Tulip, my bird. (ignoring Franklin asking: "Who is Mr. Lollipop?")

"Ahhhh!!!" Franklin runs to Lymphical, avoiding big cracks that just pop up. I just stand, doing nothing. Boom! Tulip blasts into my hands.

"Good Tulip, good Tulip." I said, ruffling my bird softly. "Ah, wanna snack?"

Tulip jumps around, and I bring Lymphical, Franklin into Pro-Loug Grotto.

I walk calmly into Pro-Loug Grotto, now with a big burrow.

"Only La Choisi Un can touch this crystal, and not hurt by it. I trust that I am that La Choisi Un. I am Goodwin!" I said. Tipping forward my hand, I now painstakingly touch it. Blasting backward by an unknown thing, I watch stars fly by.

"This is absurd! I am not La Choisi Un?" Gasping, I sat up. "Find him!"

"Who? Choisi Un? But.... I don't know who that guy is!" Lymphical said.

"I know." I said. "Right........ in this grotto."

Lymphical, gasping, said: "Is it? You right about this?"

"Try it." I said, raising my brows.

Lymphical, walking toward Crystal of Living, pulls it.

FIVE: PROFESSOR LETHARGIC

BLAST!!!! Went the blinding light.

"Glad that chapter was over." I signed. "That was a hardcore feat I'd never do again."

Lymphical blinked unbelievingly, staring in amazement at the glowing Crystal in his open hand. "Now I realize what this Crystal beholds. It has the power to control all the living!"

Suddenly, Lacy appeared beside him, stretching her greedy arms out, smirking with satisfaction. "Thanks for the Crystal, Lymphical!"

Shaking his head sadly, knowing Lacy didn't have any idea of the power of the crystal, Lymphical heaved a sigh, and thousands of termites scurried across the landscape bit furiously into Lacy's unprotected flesh. "You are poisoned badly. You better release Angelina, or else...." Lacy's arms were covered with large, oozing bumps and her eyes grew faint.

Lacy's eyes widened and glared angrily at Lymphical, spewing deep-red blood from her mouth. "Seems like you already got the hang of it." she murmured accusingly. "But, technology will prevail! I only have to push this button, and an ax will swing down upon the author's sister!"

"Or will it?" Lymphical asked rhetorically. Unfortunately for Lacy, the answer wasn't rhetorical, because my bird lost grip of its delicious trip and bounced right into Lacy instead, biting her arm with his sharp beak, so hard that Lacy did not have the tiny amount of energy to even lightly push the button. But, to that surprise, that was not it. A giant eagle came swooping in, stealing Lacy's powerful gadget from his hands.

"Arghhhh!" Lacy screamed. "Too much! Stop!" Lots of red blood was spurting out from Lacy's mouth as he spoke those words. Finally, after what seemed like forever, Lymphical waved his hand and every animal he had summoned had scurried off, except Tulip, who eyed Lymphical angrily then returned to its business of chasing the giant worm, which was squirming off.

"Thanks." Lacy said, gasping. She shook his head. "Nah, I'm no good at being evil at all! Why had I even kidnapped your sister? I'll think I'll free Angelina instead of doing this. C'mon, let's go!"

Lymphical glanced at me, unsure what to do at this sudden change. "That's not all! I'm taking you on the safest route to my castle!" Lacy declared.

"I'm glad that you're on our side!" I said, patting Lacy on the shoulder.

"Well, if the author agrees.... I mean, he should know the best of what you're thinking." Franklin said.

Lacy then suddenly started. "Oh no! That means I'll have to pass through all the danger! None of any of the routes are really safe, so...... I guess you guys will have to decide. I have a map, right... here." He pulled out a piece of yellow, old paper.

"Ok, let's have a look at this. Oh my god! How many traps have you made?" I gasped in astonishment at the map.

"Uh... not that much, actually. But, I encased something very important with just a spill of coffee." Lacy grinned. "Oh no! I just remembered something! The robots don't even listen to me anymore. They will destroy everyone in their way."

"Do you still remember what was under the spill of coffee?" Lymphical asked.

Lacy slowly shook his head. "I don't have perfect memory!"

"Ah, but I do know what is right beside the island of evil robots!" I said. "The author of a story always know where everything is located, every secret passage! It is...." Just then, something humongous cut me off. It was a giant helicopter.

"Stand still. Put your hands up!" A few solders came out, raising a gun at us. Obviously, he did not know I was the author.

"Of course we will." I said, swinging my hands up and hitting a button. We closed our eyes as thousands of arrows shot out from the outside walls of our caves. The helicopter was shot down, and the solders all stumbled and fell to their doom. Well, all except one, who had titanium armor that reflected the arrows that hit him.

"I will kill all of you, one by one!" He said. "Professor Lethargic is waiting for the news."

"Oh no! The long unseen Professor Lethargic!" I cried out.

"Not him again! I just remembered what was under the spill of coffee: it was his big city of Delta Ihad Strap Also Saco They Ease Raid!" Lacy suddenly said.

"You know him?" Franklin asked, surprised.

"Of course I do! It was horrible! I was transporting my supplies of food to Angelina during feeding time using the sacred portals which were on the edge of the city, but he then came over and zapped me using this super-zap orator, and he even used his snake poison shotinator to shoot me. I barely had time to dodge them, my fingers were gone, and my hair burned to dust!" Lacy described.

"Well, you deserved it!" Franklin said.

"Ah, who do we see here?" We saw a gray haired mad man come out of a helicopter, who was Professor Lethargic. "Your friends are absolutely no help, except.... You!" He pointed at me.

"You are strange. You know where everything is! The king welcomed you without you having to kneel down! You are witchcraft!" Professor Lethargic cried. "Take him down first!"

"That is true!" I said. "And I've practiced for the last few years to defeat you!" With that, I waved my arms and pointed at Lethargic's helicopter, and yelled: "Explosivio!”Then, a blue light passed by my hand, smashing into the helicopter, making it suddenly exploding and fell on the ground.

Coughing, sputtering, Lethargic came out of the smoke. "I still have my other solders! You are outnumbered! You can't possibly explode all of them, can you?"

"Magic may not be able to," I smiled, pushing a secret button on the seat belt, "But technology wins." And hundreds of machine guns come out of the caverns outside wall, the trees, and our helicopter. They start shooting, and the other flying machines fell, Lethargic's solders dying.

Lethargic retreated, activating his emergency-use jet-pack. "I will return! And when I do, you will be doomed!"

I smiled. "Anyways, as we were saying, you said you transported food to my sister through his city's transporters, yes?"

"Of course. There is no other way in." Lacy grinned. "Let's go!"

"Don't forget the crystal!" Franklin cried out. "It's still in the cavern!"

I smiled. "Glad you remembered that." And we hauled the crystal into the back of the helicopter.

******************************************************************

We landed safely onto the ground, the sound of choppers slowing.

"Show us the portals, Lacy." Lymphical commanded.

Lacy shook her head. "All of them have guards, Lymphical. No one can get past them."

"Is there another way?" Franklin asks curiously.

"Sorry. We'll have to get past the guards." Lacy said. "They're not my guards!"

I cleared my throat. "Have you forgotten that I am here to tell you every bad guy's weakness? Well, if you did, I can tell you that the safest portal is the Forbidden Portal."

Lacy gasped. "Not the Forbidden Portal! It has great unimaginable energy; not even Professor Lethargic goes near it! That is why it is in the field of mines!"

"If it is a field of mines, we can just fly over it to the Forbidden Portal." I said calmly.

"We'll have to be extra careful." Franklin gulped.

Riding back on the helicopter, Lacy and Lymphical cooperated carefully, one directing, one making sure the bottom of the helicopter didn't touch the ground. Inching to the portal, we watch as no one stops us, no animals come and make the mines explode. Finally, after what seemed like forever, we were right above the portal.

Throwing a rope, Lymphical lowered himself painstakingly toward the portal. With a Zap! He disappeared. We followed, Franklin almost falling off. Within a minute, we were all gone from the city.

But, instead of being in a castle, we appeared in the long lost Xedswo Empire.

"No!!! Where are we?" Franklin cried. "I knew the Forgotten Portal wouldn't help!"

Lymphical shaked me. "Why did you bring us here? We can't go back now!"

I smiled mysteriously. "Don't you remember, Lacy, being bitten by a poisonous scorpion?"

Lacy shuddered, shaking her head no. "No harm done, no harm. It is alright to speak of the truth." I said. Lacy still shook her head. "Sorry, I don't like the thought of it. But what does that have to do with going here?"

I sighed. "There are a total of 9,876 doctors in this world, but only one can treat scorpion poison. In fact, he can treat any strange disease at all, heal any scars, and is impossibly good at solving jig-saw puzzles."

"Wow! He must be really popular! Is he here now? I can't wait to get treated! I'm already getting small hallucinations like seeing your hand, Lymphical, as a mechanical arm." Lacy exclaimed.

"Yes, we must get to him as soon as possible. Silence! I must locate him." I said. Lacy, Lymphical and Franklin all followed my order, backing away, giving me space. I closed my eyes. My soul left my body, flying forward, fast as lightning. Direct me to him. I called out. Dr. Muskab O. Sentacy, let me come to you! After a while, my soul flew a complicated path, through woods, through villages, and finally landing in a small cave after a while. Silently, I crept toward Dr. Muskab. He appeared to be treating another poor patient.

".... Sir, your sickness is cured! I should be moving on now." Dr. Muskab said, turning back, and that was when he saw me. Scowling, he shakes his head. "Not you again. What is this time?"

"A person named Lacy is poisoned by giant Frevar scorpions." I said.

"Frevar scorpions?! That is suicidal! Do you know what it takes to depoison that?" Muskab made gesticulations, forming a picture of an imaginary skull.

"No, I don't know." I said truthfully. "I do know every disease, but I can't treat all of them."

Muskab paved to and fro the stone ground. "Where is she?" He asks.

"You must come and follow me to Lacy." I said.

"Yikes, that's grave danger to your body. Why don't you come to me instead?" The doctor suggests.

"Alright. But, you have to stay here, or I'll have to keep finding you again." I warned. Flying out of the cave, I passed through the mountains and lakes, back to where Lacy was. She was now lying down on the ground, seemed stunned by what she was seeing, albeit she faced the sky.

"The monsters are coming for me.... I must escape!" She screamed, running around then falling back onto the ground. Lymphical and Franklin stood there, trying their best to calm Lacy down.

Returning to my body, I open my eyes instantly and said: "The sickness is worse than I thought. Well, we'll have to visit him. I can't be able to stay outside my body for so long."

"Great. That is just great. Well? Could you conjure up a car, or rocket, or even a teleporter?" Lymphical asks. "We need a faster thing, whatever it might be!"

I frowned knowing that none of those could be possibly build in the Xedswo Empire. In fact, no machinery, or thing made out of metal could be built in here. The leader made sure of that, and nobody could change it. Ino T. Ally had kept his kingdom well, I thought. I can already see a few brick houses in the distance, not so far off.

"The laws say no. I had made this story, based on a magical planet, far in the distance. Remember Never Land and the Hogwarts Station? They are supposedly in my world, but I moved them to here. Nevertheless, the Xedswo Empire is original and olden." I explained.

"Oh no! What should we do now?" Franklin asked hurriedly. "Lacy is short of breath!" I could even hear her hyperventilating right now.

My gears turning in my head, I seeked for a solution. But, nothing came up. I thought of the strange creatures that inhabited the land, then decided no. The painful process was too long. I thought of all the secret passages, but none were closer than just going straight on. The path was cleared off, no leaves, no bugs crawling. The scene seemed really awkward, for it was fall, and when the wind blew the flamboyant weakened leaves on the trees, they did not fall off.

"Aha! I can apparate there!" I said, thinking of the book "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows".

"Great idea, author! I just hope it works out well." Lymphical muttered, double checking on Lacy, who was still squirming on the floor, trying to run out of her crazy nightmare. "Wait... You can do magic... does that mean you are a wizard?"

"Yes, I am. Not the kind that needs a wand to do spells, though." I said.

"Are you.... the wizard who made the fire?" Lymphical asked carefully.

I seemed to think for a long time before I finally gave him the answer. "Yes, I am."

"I just wanted to thank you for making him. It saved me... too bad it was killed by.... her." His voice lowered to a whisper, his finger pointing to Lacy.

"Ok, hold my hands. Here we go!" I said, summoning all the power from deep within the magical world, but, nothing seemed to happen. I opened my eyes. Surprisingly, we were all standing in front of Dr. Muskab's patient's house. Dr. Muskab was leaning on the doorway, waiting for us.

"I've already prepared the medicine while you were gone. It was tedious work, but it was worth it. My philosophy is: 'A life saved, sometime earned, a diamond's worth.'"

"Do you mean we have to pay you a diamond in order for you to save Lacy? No way! We have to author right here!" Franklin asked angrily.

"No no no, you misunderstood. I meant that a life saved is worth a diamond to me. So, I want to save lives as much as miners want diamonds." Muskab explained. "Quick, time is running out, let her eat the medicine! It may be too late."

But, as Lymphical was hurrying, with a bowl in his hands, Lacy was choking blood out. We went and fed her the medicine, but it did not work. She didn't have much breath left. She was gasping for air, and for a moment, she seemed to be out of her hallucination.

"Thank you.... I owe you a lot......" She said slowly, reaching for Lymphical's hands. "Without you... the author wouldn't come and... save me." She then lay down on the floor, her eyes closed. But, she wasn't done with her speech. "I don't have... much time left. Save her... before... Lethargic gets her." Then, she lost her grip on Lymphical, and we were left standing there somberly.

This was the first time I had ever lost a main character. I was very angry.

"Why did you have to poison her? Now the story is ruined. My stories are bad, I know, but even killing off a villain is bad! She then went on our side!" I reprimanded Lymphical.

"Sorry, but I had to do it. I could not let her get the crystal, but I am really sorry!" Lymphical explained.

"Fine, have it your way. But, I came here for another reason." I said.

"Interesting. Who is this 'her' you are trying to save?" Muskab asked curiously.

"It is my sister, Angelina. She was kidnapped by Lacy, but Lacy lost control of her, and now she has fallen into Professor Lethargic's hand." I told Dr. Muskab O. Centasy.

Muskab's eyes brightened up. "I see! You are going to ask In

Return To Top | Posted:

2014-09-13 05:52:20

| Speak Round

admin (CON)

I thank my opponent for opening his case. I'll begin by attacking his case, then I'll make mine.

Unfair to people with more time to research

This problem also exists with non-unlimited character debates. People with more time to research can get better sources.

In practice I've found this is actually seldom true. At higher levels of university debating you're given progressively less time to prepare for impromptu competitions, and yet the standard of debating still markedly improves. This is because in debating, having a good understanding of the topic is far less important than being able to speak well, having a good amount of experience, understanding logic and argument etc. The best public speakers and debaters can speak well on any topic without preparation.

Online debate shares many of these features, with the notable difference that there is usually time to look up additional information between rounds. But ultimately research still doesn't make arguments. If anything, the additional time available to research means that online debaters can more easily find time to get a basic level of understanding on the topic, which is really all you need. Unlike some debate sites, judges on edeb8 are not asked to evaluate sources specifically, but to evaluate the debate and who performed the best in it.

Unfair to slow typists

While I do encourage debaters to learn to add detail to their arguments, I feel it is necessary to distinguish between detail and fluff. Detail is when you analyze your point in depth with arguments, analysis, evidence etc. Fluff is where you write a whole lot of words without really saying anything substantive about the debate. An example of detail is this sentence - and an example of fluff is the big long story pro decided to post. Just because you can type better does not mean you can argue better.

The aim of an unlimited character debate is not even to give as much analysis as possible - it is to convince judges. Ultimately pro needs to show that just because I can type two and a half times more than my opponent, means judges will favor them. Sometimes in argument, less can be more. This argument will be shorter than pro's, but as you'll see, I present just as through a case as he does.

No time for judges to read

This makes it all the more imperative for users to keep their arguments short and to the point, while also giving the requisite detail to make their arguments count.

Here's some stats for you from an internal database query I just ran. On average, a debate with unlimited characters gets 3 votes. A debate with limited characters gets 1.96 votes. So on average across the whole of edeb8, this argument has not held true - judges are MORE likely to vote on debates with unlimited characters, not less.

Judges may skim read and miss stuff

Poor judges will always skim read and miss stuff that's relevant. A good judge may start to skim read if the debater is presenting an argument really poorly. It is up to the debater to capture the judge's attention and get them to not miss stuff. As long as the judge is not showing double standards to each side, this only shows the critical importance of not expecting judges to read a million-word essay just for 3 sentences of good points you've hidden in there somewhere. Debaters in general realize this and make arguments, even in unlimited character debates, that are still easy to digest and judge.

I did another query and checked this, and found that in practice what my opponent said is not true. On average - and remember, this is just an average - debates with unlimited characters have an average vote rating of 4.2, which is between exceptional and constructive. Debates with limited characters have less than this, having only an average vote rating of 3.76.

I ran these queries on the 16/9/2014 and excluded all debates that have not yet finished in the voting period, just to be fair.

Spamming the internet and smuggling in troll arguments

My opponent is testing the limits of edeb8's content policy. If he continues to advocate this he will be banned from the site in accordance with at least 2 of the bullet points of the content policy in the terms and conditions of use. 9spaceking, this is your warning.

Spamming, trolling, posting lots of data irrelevant to the debate at hand - all these are examples of things that can get you banned instantly from edeb8. I have never tolerated this kind of thing and am not going to start anytime soon.

Gish Galloping

There are several approaches to dealing with strategies such as this, which can be legitimate in some contexts, without writing so many characters. The simplest of these is to simply summarize several of your opponent's points into one. So "in response to all his points concerning X, I say Y" kind of thing. This gives you a much better structure while also responding to all their points. Judges will love you for it because believe it or not, Gish Gallops are hard on judges too. It's a strategy that only really works on people who haven't seen it before and don't know how to react.

The idea that most arguments being unrebutted means a win is a pretty simplistic judging model. In a debate, narrative is extremely important, so if you make it seem like your opponent's arguments don't have relevance or make them fall out of the debate, you can avoid rebutting those arguments entirely. That's just one example of alternative ways to handle this when confronted with a Gish Gallop like strategy - I'm sure that elsewhere, entire books have probably been written on the subject. Suffice to say that you don't have to respond to a Gish Gallop with the same degree of depth to have the more effective argument.

In addition, I'd just like to point out that acceptance rounds are not necessary on edeb8 and not normal here.

Force debaters to learn to make arguments succinctly

First of all, this isn't true. If I can make an argument well in 200 characters but I have up to 10,000 available, you can bet I will write 9800 characters of fluff just in case my opponent comes out with a 10,000 word article (assuming I didn't know judges are not really swayed by the number of words).

Second, debaters still need to make their arguments succinct in order to sway judges.

I did another edeb8 site query, this time looking at ALL posted debate rounds in debates without character restrictions. The number is, unfortunately, substantially increased by my opponent's last round alone - which actually pushed the average up by almost exactly 1000 characters. It currently stands at 6816 characters. Around 7000 characters per round should NOT be hard to read (especially considering pro deliberately bumped up the average by 1000 points to misrepresent how it normally is - pro's argument actually reached the maximum text length the database software is able to handle in memory, which is quite a feat, but no good for the site's database speed). I once did a reading age test of a random sample of debates on edeb8 and the answer was that you need a reading age of about 13, which for the site's target audience should be totally achievable.

(NB: forfeited rounds were excluded from the sample.)

Overall verdict

My opponent's arguments are basically that judges can't see past too many characters. I've shown that not only do judges post extremely high quality decisions on unlimited-character debates, but that such tactics are rare on edeb8, some may be against the edeb8 rules, and can be responded to adequately without stooping to their level. Judges will give the debate to the more effective debater which is NOT necessarily the one who can put in the most irrelevant material. As a matter of fact, a good judge will probably count irrelevant material against the debater by ignoring their arguments. It's legitimate because debating is just as much about manner as it is about matter.

My Case

None of this, of course, really answers the question of why I have unlimited-character debates at all.

In a real-life debate, people watch their time. Character limits are a weak approximation of this. The idea is that with equal speaking time, no side can dominate the other and both get a fair chance to be heard within the time allocated for the debate. But on the internet, there's no inherent reason why such a rule need exist - both sides can be given the same opportunity by a computer program only allowing one side to post at a time, within a specified time period. And indeed, this happens with each and every debate on the site.

Unlimited characters allows you to focus on the argument you're making. You're not concerned about how many buttons you can press on the keyboard, but about crafting the best argument you can within a specified time period. They work particularly well with secret topics, where limited preparation becomes a significant factor for both sides.

Some will like this. Others will not. That's all fine. Elo ratings are just very broad averages after all. It only works off statistics, but statistics can be biased for whatever reason. So removing these from ranked debates is as pointless as removing video debates from ranked debates: sure they're different, but they're still a legitimate, measurable debating skill.

I ask the denizens of edeb8 not to consider what kind of debating they would personally most enjoy, but whether those who do enjoy this kind of debating ought to be ostracized from our community, as they are unable to get a debate ranking. This would not be fair on them. If they cheat I will ban them in the same way as I would ban somebody who cheats in a debate with limited characters. But this need not be the case.

The resolution is negated.

Return To Top | Posted:

2014-09-15 03:39:50

| Speak Round

9spaceking (PRO)

I'm not sure why my story didn't fully appear, but whatever. I guess it would have froze the entirety of Edeb8 if I posted the whole story. Oh well. :P

Unfair to people with more time to research

Yes, the same problem does exist in non-unlimited characters, however, there is a limit for a reason. Within the limited debate, the man can only manage to garner up so much sources and word it precisely and in a concise way before being forced to revise then post. On the other hand, in the unlimited debate, the same man could garner up all the sources in the world just to support a single contention. He could have 100 different researches all showing the same thing, or slightly different versions of the same thing, and be far more effective than he could in the limited debate. However, again, this is greatly unfair, and who knows what kind of Gish Gallop could have been smuggled into those 100 different researches?

Unfair to slow typists

"Sometimes in argument, less can be more. This argument will be shorter than pro's, but as you'll see, I present just as through a case as he does."

See? This is exactly what I mean. Admin isn't mean, he isn't going to go forth with more than 15,000 characters to use elaborate phrases to word his arguments powerfully and building up towards arguments, he does what is morally acceptable; he concisely words his arguments. Again, limited characters debates have a reason to them, it gets tough and rough especially within later rounds where you have to manage to both rebut your opponent's arguments, possibly make new arguments, and rebuild your old arguments. In a limited-character debate, this enhances your critical thinking skills and ability to put as which argument is the biggest bad-est "monster", so that you can take it down first, and which of your arguments is most importantly put first forward, if you cannot have the space to put forward every single argument. However, unlimited debates take away that challenge. You can take your time and respond to each of the opponents' arguments, no matter how important, and you can build up your cases in any way without worrying about running out of space for new cases. We see the big problem here again: the training in your skills within limited-characters debates is lost within debates with unlimited characters.

No time for judges to read

The big problem here is that what I'm suggesting is bad debaters can take advantage of the unlimited characters setting. You see, if someone faced against you, the mighty admin, they could make sure to make the debate much too long to read for anyone excluding possibly admin himself (since admin can relax and read only one argument at a time instead of the entirety of the 5-round debate) and thus, Admin might be confused to why people didn't vote, and he might say "it wasn't that much of a hard read, it felt kind of like a novel but I got through relatively easily", but the judges would probably complain more about how long the debate is.

Judges may skim read and miss stuff

Interesting statistics. Well, I may be wrong. People can express their ideas in a more complex and elaborate way, or re-stress them throughout their arguments as many times as they wish to, so that might explain why these debates are actually easier to vote on than limited-character debates, especially if the debaters are good and know that they can apply the strategy that you can repeat points and not worry about not having to run out of space. But again, what's the point if the judges can't get it the first time through? If, within my arguments or rebuttals, I have to repeat the same argument over and over, throughout the debate, in order for the judges to really understand what I'm saying, then I guess I really aren't good at catching people's attention. Again, with the skills training argument, with limited characters you have to know what to bold, what to italicize, what is really important. You have to be able to stress points without repeating them too much, otherwise you will run out of space for other arguments.

Spamming the internet and smuggling in troll arguments

"My opponent is testing the limits of edeb8's content policy. If he continues to advocate this he will be banned from the site in accordance with at least 2 of the bullet points of the content policy in the terms and conditions of use. 9spaceking, this is your warning."

Dot dot dot....I am speechless.

Well you could still be able to make more fallacies/mistakes without your opponent noticing, which is technically bad conduct in its core, but unfortunately there is no point for conduct on Edeb8.

Concerning the Gish Gallop

Good job, you found the great flaw within the Gish Gallop. Now I need a new argument.

Force debaters to learn to make arguments succinctly

The point is, especially for novice debaters, they have to know how to summarize, to paraphrase, to analyze carefully and give a thorough answer in less words. If the debate was say, 2,000 character limit, and they round a 3,000 character article, then they learn the skills of summarization and improved their writing skills in the process. With unlimited characters, you could just paraphrase the 3,000 character article--to possibly even longer, and elaborate heavily on the points within the article while extending towards further articles, and further articles....and on and on. Connection is good, but there is a limit to how much you can ramble on before you get off topic. To stress this, I quote Einstein....

You see, by not forcing the debaters to explain the subject they speak of, they really don't know their potential. They don't know if they can explain it simply, because they don't have to. I'll never know if I understand an article well enough if I have to bring in complex further information from books and encyclopedias to explain it to someone else.

Overall verdict

I must concede that judges do seem to judge better on unlimited-character debates. But, as a side note, my opponent speaks of how irrelevant material should count against the debater making the irrelevant argument. But, normally, a straw-man isn't conducted against the debater, unless it clearly outright goes against his arguments. It's just his argument falling down, not his argument falling down upon himself, to explain this.

Larz's Case

My opponent brings up how people in real-life debates have limited time as we do, and this is a good comparison to how Edeb8's debates have limited time too. He was probably trying to bring up how if in real-life debates this is fair, then Edeb8's debates are fair. However, this is not a perfect comparison, and it does not exactly work out completely. You see, although some people could definitely speak much faster than the other, there is obviously a limit before the words get jumbled up or incoherent, in which case they are probably deducted points. Due to the limitations on the human mouth and vocal cords, we can only speak so much faster than the other person. In contrast, in unlimited debates, although of course there is a limitation to how fast the fingers can type, the difference can be much, much bigger. Again, the man who can type 100 WPM compared to the man who can only type 40 WMP, the 100 WPM man can spend less time than the other man, typing up much more arguments, and although not all of them may be that strong, the man with 40 WMP will have a tough time rebutting them due to his slowness and incapability within typing.

Now, to make a new argument....

Less Chitter Chatter

Once again, learning to conserve space in an important skill that can help in real life. Unfortunately, with unlimited characters you could give an anecdote of your weekend, or talk around about something irrelevant to the debate, relax a while, before getting into the debate. Debating, especially serious debating, is not to be looked casually upon. Some "I wish my opponent good luck!" Would be fine, however, with unlimited characters I wouldn't have to worry about too much chitter chatter and just talk on for fun.

And, last argument....

Unfairness.

I know I said this before, however, this point needs extra stressing. Why aren't all debates unlimited characters? There is obviously a reason why Admin gave us a choice, from 2,000 characters, to 4,000, to 10,000, and finally unlimited. This is probably due to how much the instigator feels like debating. But the contender may not feel the same way. Maybe the contender feels like only around 3,000 because he's not really into serious debating, while the instigator is around massive 10,000 characters. If the contender had started the debate, with only a 3,000 character limit, it would be much more fair, but unfortunately we can't read the minds of others so the contender really didn't know the instigator was going for 10,000 characters with real arguments and no fluff whatsoever. The poor contender isn't sure what to do and rebuts poorly in comparison because he only meant to take the debate in a rather casual manner, rather than the instigator who took the debate very seriously and debated in a professional manner in contrast.

As from the example above it is greatly unfair, especially for the contender.

There should not be unlimited characters. It is immoral for so.

Back to you, Admin.

Return To Top | Posted:

2014-09-15 07:38:14

| Speak Round

admin (CON)

My opponent asks why I don't make all debates unlimited in number of characters. One might equally ask why I don't force all arguments to be less than 2000 characters. I talked to an app developer once who was thoroughly convinced everybody would be bored to tears reading more than 500 characters per round.

Some debaters will want a limit around 8000. Some will want it around 500. And some, believe it or not, might not want a limit at all. But one of edeb8's key principles, that in my view sets us apart, is that edeb8 doesn't try to impose a style on others - edeb8 tries to accommodate as many styles as possible. That's why edeb8's greatest innovations have been in the field of creating new forms of debate never seen before. We created four-way debates on the internet for the first time. We created team debates built into the site for the first time on the internet. We were the first to have reply speeches, cross examination, and so much more. This is our legacy, and I for one am pretty proud of it. Some won't like every experience edeb8 has to offer, but that's ok. If debaters want a shorter debate then that's fine. If they want a longer debate then that's fine too. And if the length of the argument is not so important to them as the content of the argument - edeb8 has unlimited (pretty much) character debates. Which, incidentally, was another edeb8 first.

Once again I'll answer my opponent's points before coming back to mine.

Unfair to people with more time to research
I keep coming back to this - just because you have more characters to argue with does not mean you have more time to argue in. No matter how many characters the limit is, the advantage of having more time to research (which is a really minor advantage anyway) does not change. The ONLY thing that changes this advantage is the time to post, and since edeb8 does NOT allow an unlimited posting time, this is not a factor.

My opponent suggests that because posting sources takes characters, a strategy of posting too many sources. This is only true, on edeb8, in debates without formatting enabled. Otherwise, you can hotlink sources and not lose any characters at all. You can use URL shortners to fit them all in. And quite frankly, the number of links you can fit into a few thousand characters is ridiculous anyway.

None of this means that you'll actually be more convincing to judges. Judges are not necessarily swayed by how many links you can post, but by how good your arguments are in the debate.

Unfair to slow typists

My opponent and I agree that a shorter argument is usually better than a longer argument that says the same thing (unless of course you were trying to distract from some elephant in the room or something). With this in mind a slow typist can often get a big advantage in a debate like this, and so the argument doesn't stack up. It simply is not unfair to anybody.

Pro questions the need for unlimited character debates given that the challenge of being concise is taken away. The challenge still exists with unlimited character debates because otherwise you will bore judges to tears. Just because you CAN do it doesn't mean it isn't a challenge not to do it. It simply is not a mandatory challenge, and debaters are free to convince judges in whatever form they choose. There's more ways to win than just being concise. If debaters WANT a concise debate, they will do one. If judges want to read a shorter debate, they will.

The idea that one style should not be allowed because training in another style is lost in this style is crazy. You might as well just impose a single debate style on everybody if that were the case. That simply isn't consistent with the goals of the site.

No time for judges to read

The strategy described here has a fundamental flaw: judges will simply start skimming one debater's arguments if they waste their time. I know I would. If a debater were super-boring, I definitely wouldn't want to be reading their points in any depth. I described in the last round why this is a legitimate strategy for judging such a debate, and that was dropped by my opponent.

This argument further relies on the presumption that people do post great big novels (despite my empirical evidence that they do not), and that judges are not voting on such debates in the status quo (despite judges voting more on such debates).

Spamming the internet and smuggling in troll arguments

Instead of a point for bad conduct, I'm happy to ban people who display consistently poor conduct. I take notice of it as I did in the last round when pro posted a large quantity of irrelevant material, and warned him that if anything like that ever happens again he is banned from edeb8. Pretty simple.

This makes a lot more sense than a point for conduct because judges should not be judging conduct. They should be judging who won the debate. In some judging styles looking at conduct of the sides is a legitimate part of that, but in other formats it is not. All styles need to be respected.

Gish Gallop

Dropped by pro

Force debaters to learn to make arguments succinctly

Off topic would be against site rules, and like I mentioned, judges won't take too kindly to general rambling either (some judges mark down for straw mans, I mark down on it if the other side points them out, some ignore them - but no judge will mark you better if you bore them with general rambling). If it's convincing to the judges, I see the win as being legitimate.

So far as is possible, edeb8 isn't about forcing anyone to do anything. I want edeb8 to be a site where everyone can have a legitimate serious formal debate. My favorite style of debate is Australasia-Asia. That doesn't mean I begrudge BP for not having reply speeches, nor does LD begrudge AA for not having CX rounds. Different styles will inevitably require different skills and there should be no inherent reason for forcing somebody to do a style they may not optimally enjoy. Pro may not love unlimited character debates, but somebody else might and that's ok.

As for not understanding the subject, we're debaters. We're not experts. I for one am an expert in practically NONE of the subjects I debate in. If we can't debate outside of our comfort zone sometimes, then we miss out on all the critical thinking required that makes debating so very fun.

Advantages of unlimited character debates

In the last round I said:

Unlimited characters allows you to focus on the argument you're making. You're not concerned about how many buttons you can press on the keyboard, but about crafting the best argument you can within a specified time period. They work particularly well with secret topics, where limited preparation becomes a significant factor for both sides.

No response from pro.

Why time limits make more sense than character limits

I also said this:

In a real-life debate, people watch their time. Character limits are a weak approximation of this. The idea is that with equal speaking time, no side can dominate the other and both get a fair chance to be heard within the time allocated for the debate. But on the internet, there's no inherent reason why such a rule need exist - both sides can be given the same opportunity by a computer program only allowing one side to post at a time, within a specified time period. And indeed, this happens with each and every debate on the site.

Pro criticizes me because speaking speed varies less than typing speed. But this argument is making that very point: how much content you can put out is irrelevant. What matters is how much thought you can put into your arguments. Better brains should win debates, not necessarily faster talkers or faster typers. And given a fair period of thinking time, this can be accounted for. Therefore, time limits best fulfill the purpose character limits were originally intended for. Having both is definitely somewhat redundant.

Less Chitter Chatter

I cannot stress this enough - chitter chatter:

makes your argument weaker for judges
is probably a conduct violation that will get you banned
is a waste of your time when you could be coming up with cool new arguments
is not a problem on edeb8

Nothing about unlimited characters encourages chitter chatter, and frankly it can happen in debates with limited characters too.

Instigator/contender character issues

If a number of characters per round cannot be agreed on, it is easy to start your own debate on the subject. It's probably a good idea to assume there won't be 7000 characters of fluff in any debate (because there isn't), but regardless a novice user could be tipped off to this by reading the debate rules, looking at a user's past debates, checking their ELO rating etc.

The resolution is negated.

Return To Top | Posted:

2014-09-17 21:10:06

| Speak Round

9spaceking (PRO)
I concede.

I will get my revenge!! Just wait and see!

Return To Top | Posted:

2014-09-17 22:29:12

| Speak Round

admin (CON)
Pro concedes.

Return To Top | Posted:

2014-09-17 22:30:16

| Speak Round

9spaceking (PRO)

I would appreciate it if this WODC debate was voted on.

http://www.debate.org/debates/The-Santa-Claus-Myth-is-Beneficial-On-Balance/1/comments/2/

Thanks!

And remember, voters, vote my opponent within this debate, because I conceded.

Return To Top | Posted:

2014-09-18 07:19:02

| Speak Round

admin (CON)
I too would appreciate it if more WODC debates were voted on.

Return To Top | Posted:

2014-09-18 22:38:25

| Speak Round

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Blackflag
I'll wait awhile so I can cast a more detailed vote, especially since this is my second favorite feature on Edeb8.

Posted 2014-09-20 03:36:46

Blackflag
I agree with the instigator comment. My major issue is when, as instigator, you post your round, and you have no idea how much more your opponent will post trying to top you, which is why I make R1 extensive.

Posted 2014-09-16 10:51:33

admin
Proud to be the debater that pushes 9space to their limits

Posted 2014-09-15 12:20:26

Blackflag
9space, you're definitely stretching more of your potential. Good job!

Posted 2014-09-15 11:09:23

9spaceking
that's the doggone longest argument I've ever written! (Round two)

Posted 2014-09-15 07:44:40

Blackflag
Oh, good job then

Posted 2014-09-13 10:16:17

9spaceking
there. I edited it to let you know it's not plagiarism. Besides, we worked on the parts together.

Posted 2014-09-13 07:50:04

9spaceking
there's also Goodwin. Read the full thing. I'm Goodwin Lu.

Posted 2014-09-13 07:49:04

Blackflag
The author calls herself Angelina.
I'm calling plagiarism.

Posted 2014-09-13 07:18:42

9spaceking
whops....
neverendingstrory.jimbo.com
I meant

Posted 2014-09-13 06:10:02

admin
I get an error when I go to that site. This is so meta.

Posted 2014-09-13 06:01:04

9spaceking
why does it only go up to 5 chapters??

Posted 2014-09-13 06:00:05

9spaceking
hey! the rest of the chapters disappered!
read the rest on neverendingstrory.com

Posted 2014-09-13 05:59:17

9spaceking
not the whole thing, but 95% of it, yes

Posted 2014-09-13 05:56:58

Blackflag
Damn, did you write that whole story?

Posted 2014-09-13 05:56:45

9spaceking
yes he will. He is da Beast Slayer!!

Posted 2014-09-13 05:56:42

admin
Hey 9space, this could be really ironic, but did your story cut out at the end? LOL if it did.

Posted 2014-09-13 05:56:28

Blackflag
I'll be very bummed if 9space wins, but I promise to vote fairly.
I know admin will put forward the best arguments.

Posted 2014-09-13 05:54:13

Blackflag
I love unlimited characters. At first, I was worried about excessive arguments from the other side, but quality always beats quantity.

Posted 2014-09-13 05:51:06

admin
As per usual in debates of this type, if pro wins I will implement the feature of removing the option of unlimited characters in a rated debate. Interested to see their argument.

Posted 2014-09-13 04:00:27

The judging period on this debate is over

Previous Judgments

2014-09-19 20:05:22

Judge: nzlockie TOP JUDGE
Win awarded to: admin

2014-09-22 01:38:49

Judge: Blackflag
Win awarded to: admin
Reasoning:
I have to judge this debate argument for argument, and that's what I intend to do. 9space's first argument referenced a "possibility" that one man may not be as time based as the other, and have more allowance to research his case. I was a bit unsettled by this argument, because there was no opening or explanation on the background/circumstances

Generally when you open up a debate, you want to show "Here's the problem, this is why it's happening, and this is how we're going to fix it". That didn't happen, so I was left trying to be convinced of a "problem" that hasn't even been proven to exist, and that the debater automatically assumed we were in agreement about. That kind of opening isn't convincing, and makes me have a harder time affirming the subsequent arguments.

When I read 9space's first argument, I was confused by an obvious and apparent fallacy on his part. "Someone with more characters probably has more time to research". This didn't make sense to me, therefore, I had to deduct points. The amount of characters has no correlation with the amount of time to research, this much I know. Unfortunately, I can't affirm my own arguments, until admin brings them up as well. So I let it slide.

But staying on the whole "time vs typing" argument, I wasn't wholly convinced that the amount of characters negated the amount of time, and Admin brought that up nicely. A good argument I liked was the following...
"makes your argument weaker for judges
is probably a conduct violation that will get you banned
is a waste of your time when you could be coming up with cool new arguments
is not a problem on edeb8"

I know this argument was made in responce to an accusation of smuggling in troll "Arguments", but the first line summed up his case nicely. The fact that admin kept relating back to how "more isn't better" was a smart move. I was especially convinced by "read more understand less". Generally it is easier to be convinced by a stupid man with 5000 characters than a stupid man with a 100,000 character summary.

On a personal note I believe in what Admin is saying, but from a pure judging standpoint, it adequately refutes most of the cases brought forward by 9spaceking. Who also had some less desirable arguments about "trolling" and "grandiosity".

I wish Admin would of linked the conduct policy to support his case, but it didn't happen, and that makes it harder to believe you (which in this case, I most certainly do). If you say something is in the conduct policy, then show it so we can interpret it and make sure you're correct. Sourcing is a handy tool for the judges.

All in All, it was a pretty good debate, and I saw a lot of improvement out of 9spaceking.
I'm glad he stretched his debating muscles, but he still has a long way to go.

Feedback:
9space, you need more confidence in your arguments. They fell short because they weren't good.
That isn't the problem. It's that you didn't do anything to convince us otherwise. Take a note from admin. There is an art in taking terrible arguments and polishing them to the point where they actually seem like a good idea. A good trick is to use classic speaking tools like rhetoric, rationalization, and maybe a few cognitive loops. Remember though, these things can easily backfire. Judges aren't always favorable when you start repeating the same rhetoric, and will soon see through it if it becomes a 5 round strategy.
You always need a firm plan before resorting to speaking tactics.

Remember "This is a problem, this is why it's happening, and this is how we're going to fix it".
That kind of intro will seal the judges votes.

To Admin, there isn't to much to say on your case, since you're by far a better debater than me.
Good job, so I hope a lot of the advice I gave to 9space can be equally helpful to you.

1 user rated this judgement as good
2 users rated this judgement as constructive

0 comments on this judgement

2014-09-24 12:41:23

Judge: bsh1
Win awarded to: admin

2014-09-27 14:46:08

Judge: Blackflag
Win awarded to: admin1 user rated this judgement as a vote bomb

Rules of the debate

Text debate
Individual debate
4 rounds
No length restrictions
No reply speeches
No cross-examination
Community Judging Standard (notes)
Forfeiting rounds does not mean forfeiting the debate
Images allowed
HTML formatting allowed
Rated debate
Time to post: 3 days
Time to vote: 2 weeks
Time to prepare: None

BoP is shared. Ranked debate: debate in which you earn elo if you win, and lose elo if you lose. Unlimited characters: the ability to post, technically, infinite amount of characters, words, paragraphs, even entire novels onto the page. (Not that you would be able to post infinity anything, just be able to post insanely huge amounts of walls of texts)
Good luck and have fun!