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The Christian God Exists

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(CON)
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MrMarxMrMarx (PRO)
Okay so in order to prove Christianity, I have to give sufficient warrant for two things: 1) the God of the Bible exists 2) Jesus was who he claimed to be, the Messiah, God. 

I am first going to argue for the existence of God. God in the Bible is a being who is a maximally great one, all-knowing, all-beneficent, and all-powerful. My argument for the existence of this being is that when things are brought into existence, they always have a cause of their being brought into existence. But if this is true, then the universe also has to have a cause, as it also began to exist according to the best evidence in the field of cosmology. My argument can be formalized in the following way:

1) everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause of its existence
2) the universe had a beginning of its existence
3) therefore, the universe has a cause

This is a logically valid argument. That is to say no other conclusion could be drawn from the premises than that the universe has a cause. All that has to be proven now is the premises. Are they true? Well, lets examine them;

List of evidence for 1;

1) it is constantly confirmed by everyday experience. Things occur because of something or things causing them to occur.
2) it violates the metaphysical principle of ex nihilo nihil fit to say things could spring into being without being caused to come into being
3) if things could come into being without a cause, things would just randomly pop into being, which we never see

So, premise 1 is very likely true.

List of evidence for premise 2;

1)Cosmologists Guth, Borde and Villenkin wrote a scientific paper (https://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0110012) stating the Guth-Borde-Villenkin theorem, which says any universe that is on average expanding must have started a finite time ago
2) Red shift proves the universe is inflating and thus proves big bang cosmology
3) The second law of thermodynamics says that if the universe had been here forever, we would have run out of usable energy by now

Science is clearly in favour of a universe that has not existed forever.

By analysing what properties the cause of the universe should have, we discover it must be unlimited by space and time and therefore, a maximally extended and thus maximally great being. Something that is infinitely extended would have seen everything, would know everything, and would have all the greatest characteristics of itself as a personal mind, and thus be all beneficent, for it is much greater for a personal being to be moral than to be corrupt. Why do I assume this being is personal? Two metaphysical reasons

1) the being has to be a personal agent since it would be infinitely existent sans the universe's space-time and would therefore have to be an agent cause as only a cause that has freedom of will could create a finite effect (our universe) from itself as an infinite.
2) the being would be outside of space time and only two objects could be outside space-time, abstract objects or else an unembodied mind or consciousness. But an abstract object like A=A can't stand in a causal relationship. Therefore, this cause of the universe must be a personal mind.

And through this sound reasoning we are brought to an all great personal being, aka the Abrahamic God.

In my second argument I will use Bayes theorem to show inductively it is quite likely Jesus was raised from the dead, and thus he fulfilled his prophecy of his own resurrection and was God. 

There is a majority consensus among historians of the New Testament today that there are four facts about the account in the Gospels of the New Testament surrounding the empty tomb of Jesus

1) Jesus was buried in his tomb by a member of the Jewish Court that first handed Jesus to the Roman authorities. This means the location of the tomb was known to Jew and Gentile alike in Jerusalem. If Jesus had not risen from the dead, the disciples could never have gotten away with saying he had risen from it, as any Jew or Gentile could go to the tomb and see for themselves whether he had. The fact they got away with saying he was raised from the dead gives a good indication his tomb was empty.

2) Jesus' empty tomb was found in its state by a group of his women followers. In those days in any Jewish court, a woman's witness was worth 1/3 of a man's opinion. The fact WOMEN and not men are recorded as finding Jesus' tomb empty shows it cannot have been simply a legend. Otherwise, why not have men discover it? 

3) On multiple occasions and under various circumstances, different individuals and groups of people experienced appearances of Jesus alive from the dead.

4) The disciples believed Jesus had risen from the dead, despite the fact they were Jews who did not believe in resurrection or any kind of afterlife except at the end of days.

Here is a source showing these are facts according to new testament scholars http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-resurrection-of-jesus

Our background knowledge (B) of ressurection has to be factored in to the chance of resurrection A.

A is an extremely low number, however, B increases that likelihood. We will say A has a 0.001 chance of occurring and B raises confidence in resurrection to 0.78.

So we say P(A/B)=P(0.78/0.001)*P(0.001)/P(0.78)

That calculation works out at 1*100=100% chance of resurrection. Thus we have a strong inductive argument for Jesus rising from the dead.

Return To Top | Posted:
2016-10-21 01:32:22
| Speak Round
KohaiKohai (CON)
I would like to thank my opponent for posting his response. In my opening statements, I'd like to show why I believe that the Christian God does not exist, as well as show why Jesus cannot possibly be the Messiah. Please note that most of my arguments come from a debate that I did on Debate.org

Contention 1: The Argument from Confusion


Christianity is not homogenous in any stretch of the imagination. Indeed, the World Christian Encyclopedia estimates  that there are over 20,000 Christian denominations (Barrett, 2001).  These various denominations of Christianity are vast in practice and  beliefs and differ on vital theological issues such as the trinity,  salvation, baptism, heaven, and hell.


The reason that these denominations and practices exist is not  because of Satan, the Devil, or apostasy; rather, it is because the  Bible is unclear on certain issues and is contradicts itself (see my  next contention).


In John 17:21, Jesus prayed that all of His disciples (and by  extension, all of Christendom) would be one. Sadly, this has not been  the case ever since Jesus founded Christianity.


Pro would most certainly agree that Salvation is one of the most  important doctrines in Christianity. Indeed, according to Christian  belief, without Salvation we would all be doomed to hell.


Certain denominations of Christianity believe that baptism is  necessary for salvation, others believe that salvation is a  pre-requisite of baptism and that baptism is merely an after-the-fact  symbol. Still, others believe that obedience to the Law is a requirement  (Matthies, 2002).


So, I will ask Pro, what must I do to be saved?


Putting this all together, we get this syllogism from Theodore Drange (Drange, 2006):


G-Beliefs: The fundamental beliefs that are essential for all Christians to believe.


1 If the God of Christianity were to exist, then: (a) He would love all Christians and want a personal relationship with them; and (b) People would need to have G-beliefs (among other  things) in order to have the sort of relationship with God that he  would want them to have.

2 Therefore, if the God of evangelical Christianity were to exist, then he would want all Christians to have G-belief

3 Thus, if the God of evangelical Christianity were  to exist, then he would probably prevent Christians from becoming  confused or conflicted about matters that are the subject of G-beliefs.

4 But some Christians are confused about such matters.

5 And many Christians disagree with one another about such matters.

6 Therefore, Christians have not been prevented  from becoming confused or conflicted about matters that are the subject  of G-beliefs.

7 Hence, probably the God of evangelical Christianity does not exist.


Contention 2: Argument from Biblical Defects


There is much that can be said about Biblical errors and  contradictions. However, due to the character limit, I will limit myself  so Pro can have adequate space to properly rebut my claims. I borrowed  and revised a syllogism from Theodore Drange. This argument is known as  the argument from Biblical errors (Drange, 2006):


1 If the God of Christianity were to exist, then  God would see it that the Bible is perfectly clear, authoritative, and  lack the appearance of merely human authorship.

2 Some facts about the Bible are the following: (a) It contains contradictions and failed prophecies; (b) It contains interpolations

3 Therefore, the Bible is not perfectly clear, authoritative, and has the appearance of merely human authorship

4 Hence, the God of Christianity most likely does not exist.


The Bible Contains Contradictions and Unfulfilled Prophecies


In order to give my opponent enough time to counter these, I will  present one contradiction and one unfulfilled prophecy that I believe to  be most consequential.


Who was the Father of Joseph?

  
 

The father of Jesus was Jacob

 		 

The father of Joseph was Heli

 
 

Matthew 1:16 “and Jacob was the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.”

 		 

Luke 3:23 “Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years  of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli”

 
             

Genealogy is very important. According to Jewish law, the father  determines the tribal status of the child. For example, if the mother is  from the Tribe of Judah and the father is from the tribe of Levi, the  child is considered to be a Levi. However, the mother determines the  Jewish status of the child. If the mother is not Jewish and the father  is Jewish, then the child is not Jewish.


Christians claim that Jesus was the Messiah. According to the  Prophets, the Messiah had to be a direct descendant of King David and  also King Solomon (see II Samuel 7:16).


Luke’s genealogy goes through Nathan, not Solomon. Thus, if Luke’s  genealogy is correct, then Jesus is not the Messiah and thus the  Christian God does not exist.


Failed prophecy: The prophecy of Egypt


The prophet Ezekiel makes several prophecies regarding Egypt that have failed.


Ezekiel 29:8-12 “...thus says the Lord  God...and the land of Egypt shall be a desolation and a waste...no foot  of man shall pass through it and no foot of beast shall past through it;  it shall be uninhabited for forty years. And I will make the city of  Egypt a desolation in the midst of desolated countries; and her cities  shall be desolated forty years... I will scatter Egyptian among the  nations, and disperse them through the countries.”

Ezekiel 29:20 “I have given him  [Nebuchadnezzar] the land of Egypt as his recompense for which he has  laboured, because they worked for me, says the Lord God.”


Ezekiel prophesied that Egypt will become desolate, will experience a  diaspora, be uninhabited for 40 years, and be conquered by Babylon.  Unfortunately, none of this ever happened (Tobin, Failed Prophecies,  2000)


The Bible Contains Interpolations


An interpolation is defined as an addition to the work that was  added by someone other than the author. Some of the most famous examples  are the Pericope Adulterae, the Johanine Comma, and the end to the Gospel of Mark (Mark 16:9-20).


Probably the most famous example of an interpolation is that of the Johanine Comma.  This is one of the clearest references to the trinity. Unfortunately,  the statement is false. Got Questions notes


“While it would be convenient for there to  be an explicit statement confirming the Trinity in the Bible, it is  highly unlikely that the Comma Johanneum was originally a part of 1  John. Some ancient scribe, either intentionally or accidentally added it  to a Latin manuscript, and then that addition was copied thousands upon  thousands of times.”


One of the most beloved stories in the New Testament is the Pericope Adulterae,  the story of Jesus saving an adulterous woman from being stoned.  However, none of the early manuscripts have this passage, nor do any of  the earliest Biblical translations. This passage was also unknown to  Christian writers before Ambrose and Augustine. Even more, certain  manuscripts have it appear not in the Gospel of John, but in Luke  (Tobin, Unauthentic Texts in the New Testament , 2000)!


Finally, the last few verses of the Gospel of Mark has been under  dispute. Certain manuscripts, for example, read, "And they promptly  reported all these instructions to Peter and his companions. And after  that, Jesus Himself sent out through them from east to west the sacred  and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation."


Matt Slick of the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (CARM)  notes, “[T]he fact remains that these 12 verses are under dispute and it  is necessary to spotlight this issue when dealing with the historic  reliability and inspiration of the New Testament manuscripts.” (Slick,  n.d.



Over to Pro!


 Works Cited 

Barrett, D. B. (2001). World Christian Encyclopedia: A Comparative Survey of Churches and Religions in The Modern World (2nd Edition ed., Vol. 1). Cambridge: Oxford University Press.

Drange, T. (2006). The Improbability of God. (M. Martin, & R. Monnier, Eds.) Ahmerst, NY: Prometheus Books.


Return To Top | Posted:
2016-10-23 05:06:45
| Speak Round


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KohaiKohai
@MrMarx - you have about 23 hours left to post.
Posted 2016-10-29 05:24:28
Bi0HazardBi0Hazard
He is a secular Jew.
Posted 2016-10-22 10:49:18
MrMarxMrMarx
Heh, I'm not a Marxist. I just think the name is funny.
Posted 2016-10-21 01:37:21
Random StrangerRandom Stranger
@Kohai Hmm, Interesting...
Posted 2016-10-18 12:54:31
KohaiKohai
@Random_Stranger, I am going to argue from an atheistic perspective.
Posted 2016-10-18 12:18:21
Random StrangerRandom Stranger
@Kohai I understand that, but I expected an Athiest to pick this one up, so your arguments are probably going to be a lot less about general Atheism vs. Theism than what I expected.
Posted 2016-10-18 12:01:41
KohaiKohai
Random Stranger, the Jewish God is NOT the same as the Christian God.
Posted 2016-10-18 07:30:17
Random StrangerRandom Stranger
...and a Jew arguing against the CHRISTIAN God. Expect a lot of technicalities.
Posted 2016-10-18 07:24:49
Bi0HazardBi0Hazard
@MrMarx
Karl Marx arguing for the Christian God's existence? Really?
Posted 2016-10-17 14:07:56
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I hold the burden of proof here, obviously.