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Kimi is a superior cat to Louis

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9 points
nzlockienzlockie (PRO)
After much arguing between ourselves, we've decided to open this up to Edeb8. 
My contention is that Kimi, my cat is, on balance, a better cat than Shelley's cat, Louis. 
I intend to show that over the majority of categories, Kimi produces a higher score, thereby making her the better cat.

This is Kimi.
As you can see, she is clearly a very good looking cat. She has strikings of Ginger which is very unusual for a female cat. In fact only about 25% of ginger cats are female. 

This is where she really shines. She is a VERY friendly cat and not at all aloof or afraid of strangers. She loves to sit on laps but doesn't hold it against you if you push her away. This picture is of her lying on my chest. Look at the love in her eyes!

Kimi has given birth to SIX kittens. This was all on her first try. She was a fantastic mother to all of them. We kept one and she still washes him regularly and gives him the odd swipe when he deserves it. Which is a lot. 

Despite her having a bit of a bad reputation in this area, she is VERY intelligent. When we feed them, they get all their food in a big bowl. Kimi lies directly on top of the bowl and eats it from the far edge. This way nobody can get any food until she's good and ready. 

Despite being the only female in our cat family, she has no problem standing up to the boys and regularly pushes them around. She will even hiss at me if I try and take her food away. 

She has been blessed - oh hang on, I've run out of characters. I'll pick this point up in later rounds. Thanks very much...


Return To Top | Posted:
2014-08-09 00:40:22
| Speak Round
sea_shellsea_shell (CON)
I thank you for your argument, and admire how you can fit so many delusions in such a brief post.  
I would like to respond to show that Louis is without doubt far superior to Kimi.
Displaying 20140513_165000.jpg
That's not love in Kimi's eyes, it's conjunctivitis. Louis is what Jeremy's mother calls "striking".   Classic long fluffy fur that coordinates with everything.

Do not let Kimi's forward nature trick you into thinking she is friendly.  She's hungry and wants to eat whatever you may have spilt on yourself.  Louis is the kind of cat who would have been worshiped in ancient times.  When he chooses to be your friend it is like being let into an exclusive club.  He is thoughtful in his affection, which makes it worth more.
Kimi had kittens.  Here is the one we kept, howling in hunger while Kimi guards the bowl with her girth. 

Louis is very clever.  He has a range of meows to communicate.  We can tell when he sees a bird (chattering), wants food (tiny mew) or when he is feeling sick (Meow-ow-ow-ow), giving me enough time to open the door and let him gracefully trot out.  Kimi has lost her vocal chords, probably due to eating too fast. We have a saying in our house, "Kim, Kim, nice but dim"

Louis is a french name, meaning "Fierce Warrior". It is astoundingly fitting.  Just because he doesn't want to be in the same room with you and would rather be behind our bed doesn't mean he's scared.

To the core of my being, Kimi would never be allowed to come anywhere near my glass of red wine like Louis is in my first photo.  She would knock into it given any opportunity.  Not that she could jump up onto that space.  I think she was trying to get unstuck from the carpet at that point in time anyway.

If you don't like cats, Louis wouldn't go near you anyway, if you do like cats, Louis is the essence of what it is to be a feline.  He walks by himself, and all places are alike to him.

Be cool. Vote Louis. Vote con.

Return To Top | Posted:
2014-08-10 04:48:11
| Speak Round
nzlockienzlockie (PRO)
I'd like to thank CON for her round and the nice dinner she cooked me tonight. 
In my first round I introduced some classic CATegories and explained why Kimi tops them all. In this round I'll be providing you with ironclad testimony from close family and friends of both sides who are in a unique position to be able to judge which of our cats is superior. 

BUT FIRST: I'd like to propose the following syllogism:
P1: Being Nice is an improvement on being Not Nice.
P2: Creatures that are Nice are Friendly.
C1: Creatures that are Friendly are an improvement on creatures that are Not Friendly.
P3: Improvements equal superior.
C2: Creatures that are Friendly are superior to Creatures that are Not Friendly.

You see, this simple progression shows that a cat who is friendly is actually an improvement on the conventional cat. My goal in this round is to demonstrate that according to those who know her, Kimi is a friendlier cat than Louis, and therefore a superior one.

Lisa is Shelley's best friend. It took some pressing but I finally managed to get her to commit to an answer: 
 Note: "The nicest most friendly one is Kimi!! " - Lisa, Shelley's best friend.
I was going to ask if she was sure, but the double exclamation marks kind of say it all. 

In a quick poll, I also found that 100% of our mutual friends and family think that Kimi is Friendlier, in fact even CON agrees with that fact.
This is from Hayden who lives with us: "I like petting Cats. Kimi lets me pet her. She is the Friendliest Cat." - Hayden who lives with us.

A friendly cat = a superior cat. Kimi is the friendliest cat, therefore she is superior.

Thank you, please vote PRO.

Oh! I was going to finish my point about the Agility! Well Kimi wins that one too because sh... 

Return To Top | Posted:
2014-08-11 08:30:41
| Speak Round
sea_shellsea_shell (CON)

I would like to thank PRO for his latest argument and for making this, my first ever debate, ridiculously easy for me.  I also want him to know that even though he is wrong, his CATegory joke made me smile.


I would like to begin by pointing out that PRO has realised that Kimi is only superior to Louis in the CATegory of friendliness to the average joe and that is why he has narrowed his argument down to that simple misleading proposition that being nice equals superior.  That is like saying the best life partner is the one who goes around the whole party kissing everyone because then you'll know they like kissing.  While that person may be friendly, they would not make the best mate.  Likewise a cat, the best cat is not one who will go to whoever smells the most of hamburger, but one that is waiting at the window for you at the end of a long day and warm your lap unconditionally. 


In reply to the well-edited remarks CON scrapped together, I have a response from Hayden, an award-winning designer "Louis is the nicest looking. He's the most aesthetically pleasing". That's from a designer! Anyone can let you pet them, very few are pleasing to the eye.  My other quotes from many would take up too many characters so I have screen shot them.  

The observant and thoughtful out there will note that these are not  comments simply for this debate but from a variety of people over time who delight in the smallest bit of love Louis gives them.

These prove people who know them like Louis more and know KImi is after two things: her next meal and the one after that.

When you have to work for something it is worth more.  Louis' friendship and affection is worth more.  It's not his fault some people don't earn it. Clearly Louis has come out top in all other categories. that's why PRO is clutching at the friendship straw.

Thank you, please vote CON ( the cool people on Facebook are).

Return To Top | Posted:
2014-08-12 18:45:59
| Speak Round
nzlockienzlockie (PRO)
I'd like to thank my opponent for attempting to win an impossible case. I'd like to assure her that even though she's dipped into the Nerd Pool by joining what is essentially, the debate club, she's still super hot and super cool. Unfortunately, in this case,  she's also super wrong.

In this debate, my burden of proof was to show that Kimi is a SUPERIOR cat to Louis. This is how I achieved that:

Round 1: I establish that Kimi is a Cat and exhibits Catlike qualities. (CON responds by proving that Louis is also a Cat and exhibits catlike qualities.)
Round 2: I establish that Kimi is unanimously acknowledged for her FRIENDLINESS. This is NOT a stereotypical quality for a cat. This makes her a SUPERIOR cat. 
(CON responds by painting Kimi as Lazy and Hungry. One of which proves my next point and the other is just good survival instinct.)

CON has shown NO evidence that Louis is anything but an extraordinary specimen of a typical cat. 
This source lists the stereotypical characteristics for all animals. Cats are listed as being: Clever, lazy, villainous, mischievous, unreliable, cute.
Between us, both sides of this house have proved that Kimi meets every one of these stereotypes, thus confirming that she is a cat. But then she has gone above and beyond her natural characteristics to add, FRIENDLY to that list!
CON herself gives me the evidence that this is not a natural characteristic for a cat by quoting Rudyard Kipling's "The Cat who walked by himself" in which he points out that a defining feature of the animal is that they are uniformly aloof and private. 

As we established in Round 2, in a simple syllogism which has not been disputed by CON, "Friendly" equals Improvement which equals a Superior cat.

By breaking the mold where Louis couldn't and becoming a cat who is NOT aloof or private, Kimi has demonstrated her superiority. 

VOTE PRO for friendlier cats.
 Kimi resents the implication she's lazy.

Return To Top | Posted:
2014-08-12 21:35:58
| Speak Round
sea_shellsea_shell (CON)
I would like to begin my conclusion by thanking PRO for all effort he has put into this debate.  I'd also like him to know that if he was a cat, this debate wouldn't exist as he would, undebatebly,be the superior cat.  And also because cats can't debate.  
But Louis would if he had a valid email address.

In the previous entertaining rounds, PRO failed to prove Kimi is a superior cat.  I have not only disproved this in comparison to Louis but have proven that Louis is the superior cat.  
I have done this by:
Round 1: Proving Louis is superior in five of the six categories that PRO himself chose.  The only one he didn't shine in was parenting, and ignoring his offspring is preferable to preventing them from eating like Kimi does.  
Round 2: Proving that friendly is not enough to class a cat as superior and in fact friendliness is not as desirable as loyalty. Especially since all friendship flies out the window when you get in the way of Kimi's next morsel of food.

And Louis is very generous.

PRO has tried to muddy the waters by throwing about syllogisms and tossing out the categories of which Louis is superior.  PRO has even gone as far as insinuating that because some link says cats have some bad qualities and Kimi has most of these bad qualities then she must be superior!.  Do not let him get away with it.

I have proved Louis is the better cat.  He is smarter, better looking, a better companion, and is full of grace, seen in my first round  Louis brightens peoples days and motivates them to instagram, facebook and Voxer more than KImi ever has and ever will, as proved by my second round.  

 We all like to root for the undercat, KImi may get our sympathy with her flakey skin, her diseased eyes and her single tooth.  But let's not confuse sympathy with adoration.  Louis is the superior cat.  

Vote CON, where superior actually means superior. 

Louis thinks we're done - it's time for a nap.

Return To Top | Posted:
2014-08-14 18:59:55
| Speak Round

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Thanks! It has been my favourite (read: only) debate too. And it didn't hurt that i won!
Posted 2014-09-18 06:49:31
what a fun debate. This is my official favorite debate of Edeb8 of all time.
Posted 2014-09-17 21:54:49
Some of my favourite people are nerds.
Posted 2014-08-15 00:54:13
Damn - I KNEW I shouldn't have ragged on the Nerds!

Hahaha - this has been my favourite debate so far.
Posted 2014-08-14 22:12:40
Aww, sorry Jerry.
Posted 2014-08-13 08:54:01
No, you can't vote on your own debate :/
Posted 2014-08-13 07:23:12
That would mean I couldn't vote! I can vote for this debate, right?
Posted 2014-08-13 06:16:59
I don't know, considering how hard it is to get people to vote already, I don't know that we'd want to make it any harder for them...
Posted 2014-08-13 05:47:30
There should be a 3 debate or 100 forum post rule before you're allowed to vote.
Posted 2014-08-13 04:04:00
I don't know. Those facebook friends might not have that much time on their hands lol.
Posted 2014-08-12 20:32:59
I hope not.
Posted 2014-08-12 20:32:15
This debate has just became "who can get the most facebook friends to vote"
Posted 2014-08-12 20:29:11

This debate is the cutest thing ever. <3
Posted 2014-08-12 04:06:00
Posted 2014-08-12 04:01:21
This debate is close like Kimi doesn't have flakey skin.
Posted 2014-08-12 03:55:31
I think so too. :)
Posted 2014-08-12 03:24:50
Ba'al - you have no idea how happy that makes me to hear that.
Posted 2014-08-12 03:19:42
Close debate so far.
Posted 2014-08-12 03:18:21
@admin Lol, yep, just for this debate.
Posted 2014-08-12 01:37:32
I actually have no idea what's happening. But I'm happy that that point won't affect the overall outcome anyway. I'll pick it up again in the last round.
Posted 2014-08-11 23:04:35
It's not acting up admin. J is acting up 😊
Posted 2014-08-11 22:12:07
Agility ... the unfinishable point. Seems to be acting up more during this debate for no good reason. Oh well, will keep looking at it. If you message me the rest of your argument I'll fix it up manually.

I also like how Rebekah changed her profile pic to suit the debate.
Posted 2014-08-11 18:23:41
Oh darn! The site cut my argument short again! Those damn ellipses!
Posted 2014-08-11 08:33:36
J is on the phone trying to find anyone who can tell him something positive about Kimi. Poor guy has run out of ideas himself.
Posted 2014-08-11 05:29:04
It's cruel how many animals don't ever see the light of day. That's not what they were created for. For meat, yes, for being abused, no.
Posted 2014-08-10 06:07:16
We don't lock our cows up, free range, like our cats! 🐃
Posted 2014-08-10 06:03:12
Your cat reminds me of the cows that get locked up in the barns because of how it's black and white.
Posted 2014-08-10 06:01:02
Thanks admin!
I don't need clever retorts when my cat looks like that!
Posted 2014-08-10 05:53:05
Posted 2014-08-10 05:46:53
Er, maybe? I might vote.
Posted 2014-08-10 05:45:16
Lol, Mr. DK is awesome like that.
Posted 2014-08-10 05:44:02
It'll be even more awesome if he votes for me as well!
Posted 2014-08-10 05:43:54
Lol, Mr. DK is awesome like that.
Posted 2014-08-10 05:42:16
Admin is playing Mr Fix-it for me.
Posted 2014-08-10 05:40:44
It said i had 29 left. But maybe.
Posted 2014-08-10 05:00:57
Probably cuz you had too many caricatures.
Posted 2014-08-10 04:58:37
And the last part of my post was cut off too! Grr.
It's my first time...
Posted 2014-08-10 04:55:11
Nor can I. :/
Posted 2014-08-10 04:53:10
I can't see the pictures 0_0
Posted 2014-08-10 04:52:31
Yay! New argument.
Posted 2014-08-10 04:52:21
Lol, drooling cats. That's the best thing ever!
Posted 2014-08-09 04:47:14
Let's just say I have a lot more material to work with. My cat is cool. Jeremy's cat drools. Literally.
Posted 2014-08-09 04:25:48
Lol, I'm assuming the ground is uneven?
Posted 2014-08-09 04:00:49
Wow. Already resorting to that J?
Posted 2014-08-09 02:31:11
Haha! That's the best.
Posted 2014-08-09 02:28:12
If in doubt, just vote for me.
Posted 2014-08-09 02:25:46
whoever has the best case.
Posted 2014-08-09 02:20:07
How are we supposed to judge this :/
Posted 2014-08-09 01:59:32
It was. This is J's attempt at trying to get Kimi some props. She doesn't get any love in NZ so J's taking it to the international stage. Poor guy.
Posted 2014-08-09 01:31:28
The round was just posted.......
Posted 2014-08-09 01:09:11
Kimi and Louis are the Phillip family's cats. Young Grasshopper, if you read the debate you'd most likely know that.
Posted 2014-08-09 00:50:57
Interesting! I don't have a damn idea what you two are debating. Who is Kimi and why is he superior to Louis?!
Posted 2014-08-08 17:15:33
Stupid auto correct.
Posted 2014-08-08 08:57:42
How can thus end well for you my love?
Posted 2014-08-08 08:57:02
The judging period on this debate is over

Previous Judgments

2014-08-14 20:07:49
BlackflagJudge: Blackflag
Win awarded to: sea_shell
I didn't know how to vote on this, so I'll just do it point by point.

Looks: Hardly Argued by CON, so I have to give this point to PRO. I felt like CON could of pushed this point harder.
+1 PRO
Personality: PRO seemed to drop this point to change course. I have to give it to CON.
+1 CON
Parenting: I don't believe a contention about Louis being a parent was brought up. I suppose that means Kimi went uncontested.
+1 PRO
Intelligence: I was convinced with many of CON's arguments, that Louis was the smarter cat. Getting up on the counter, the door picture, so this is a pretty clear point for CON.
+1 CON
Strength/Courage: Saying Louis means "fierce warrior" doesn't imply Louis himself is strong.
+1 PRO
Agility: Concession???
+1 CON
Public Opinion: PRO got grilled here, but we were warned that Kimi is hated in New Zealand....
+1 CON
Nicest: PRO pushed this point very hard, and it was a pretty solid case. Spending an entire round on the matter. Insta-point for the sake of having a better argument, but CON's argument hit hard a little.
+1 PRO
+1 CON
Survival Instinct: I think this was a good rebuttal, which is why I'm negating CON's rebuttal.
+1 PRO (negation)
Loyalty: PRO didn't defend this point :/

*Final Tally*
NZlockie: 5 points
Sea_Shell: 5 points
Note: I tallied this after giving the points.
Since we are at a tie, I need to give the debate to the better speaking, and I think that was Sea_Shell. Especially in the final two rounds. So I am forced to do this.
+1 CON. Sorry, but this debate literally came down to the grain

- NZlockie, you dropped a lot of points you could of argued. You pursued the friendliness case to much, leaving you less time to hit other rebuttals. You let Sea_Shell tag on arguments you made, giving no accountability. If you had spent half the time you did arguing friendliness, to refute cases, I believe you could of won by a large margin.

- Sea_Shell, same complaint with you. Leaving nothing to be un-refuted. I was disappointed that you kept inferring things as true, using unconventional means. I didn't accept arguments that were of opinion, rather than what actually seems realistic.

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2014-08-14 21:37:00
adminJudge: admin    TOP JUDGE
Win awarded to: sea_shell
I'll do it round by round. tl;dr pro started strong and slowly let victory creep away from him.

Pro showed Kimi's looks make her rare, blessings make her agile, intellect makes her good at... umm, eating, strength makes her formidable, personality makes her approachable, and fertility ensures much kittening.

Con's response to the looks point was a bit inadequite. The impact through rarity was the crux of this argument and it had to be addressed. Con did show coordinated fur, though I have no idea what this actually means.

Her response to the personality point was slightly better, trying to show rarity of affection is instead a strength. However, she then shoots herself in the foot by saying Kimi isn't really showing affection, thus Kimi's affection is more rare than Louis. No matter which way I score that then, Kimi comes out on top on personality. The "nice but dim" saying referenced later re-affirms this.

The parenting point, con makes a great argument that it's contradictory with pro's intellect point, which was a weird argument all along anyway. I was pretty prepared to accept that Kimi likes her food over and above her kittens or vocal chords. Con also showed a range of ways in which Louis has great intellect.

I didn't get the strength response from con at all. She asserted the opposite was true but didn't really explain the why of "just because he doesn't want to be in the same room with you and would rather be behind our bed doesn't mean he's scared". Con did, however, establish herself on the agility point nicely, with a depth of analysis pro did not meet.

Pro opened with a syllogism. It probably wasn't strictly logically correct but I was prepared to accept it. It demonstrated a move in con's case towards friendliness being key. Pro used a variety of quotes to establish that Kimi was friendly. I felt like what con had to do here was tear down that syllogism to show there's more to being a cat than making friends. Con kinda did this in her opening with a party metaphor, but it probably could have been presented a lot less poetically. I also felt that con was right to point out pro's non-responsiveness to her counter-argument to friendship being key. Even though I felt like this was a self-defeating argument that worked in pro's favor no matter which way you see it, pro did not have that response.

Pro opened poorly by telling us nerds were not hot and not cool. Probably a bad move. That lost him the debate right then and there.

I felt that in general, con's summary was super easy to follow here. Pro needed to answer con's arguments on the friendliness front. After round one, I had pro winning half the arguments, but as the debate wore on it became increasingly clear that the lack of answers to con's quite reasonable rebuttals, coupled with somewhat questionable strategy, lost them the debate.

Both sides - learn how to structure your cases. Generally better organized cases are not only easier to follow, but stronger as well. This was the biggest issue for me in this debate. One particular problem was that the structure changed a lot from round to round, with round 1 probably having too many relevant headings and round 2 too few. Feel free to make subheadings and such for that kind of thing. In general you should aim for having 3 arguments to your case. 2 is better than 4 but much worse than 3. One can work in some rare circumstances, but it can backfire easily so few top debaters I've seen do it. Zero works if you are doing a straight negative, which is where you are con and do nothing but rebut everything pro says in a lot of detail (this tactic is rare among top debaters too because its banned in many big tournaments). Five plus never works. But three works in every debate, every time. Pretty much the magic number of debating.

I enjoyed the trash talk in this debate, but try to keep it at no more than this level. For such short rounds I felt like a lot of characters were used on that and not enough on the substantive arguments.

There's an important lesson in strategy in this debate, particularly for pro:
1) If switching strategy, be sure to keep defending your old case or to concede it. If you can't afford to do either, don't switch your strategy.
2) When you narrow your case, extending the point is not enough. You still need to defend the point. This is particularly relevant in 4-ways where extensions may take the form of additional analysis pertaining to an argument in the debate.

And just a particular point for con as well, try to tighten up your case. You can use analogies and such, but only if you've also explained the logic of why they work somewhere. Examples, anecdotes etc should be used to bolster arguments, not make arguments.

Something both of you did well in this debate was using formatting and images in a way that supported your cases and kept up the entertainment as the debate wore on.
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2014-08-27 17:21:33
9spacekingJudge: 9spaceking
Win awarded to: sea_shell
pro dropped a lot of important points that led to him losing
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