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nzlockie
By nzlockie | Oct 5 2015 1:45 AM
True Capitalist Acolyte: So what you're saying is that the USA has a history of high crime, and youd like to throw more guns into the mix? Think arming more people is going to help?

The problem with these shootings is not the taking down of the shooter, in every instance the police or equiv do that. The problem is the fact that this disgruntled person had ready access to weapons which allowed them to take lives with ease.

The primary reason Americans have guns is for defence. That is paranoia.
nzlockie
By nzlockie | Oct 5 2015 1:51 AM
ColeTrain: How do you think it works in almost every other civilised country?

I'm in the UK at the moment. There are 63 million people crammed into an island the size of CA. They have a massive welfare state and a drinking culture like I haven't seen anywhere. How come we don't hear of mass shootings here?

The fact that Americans feel so threatened by everything breeds the sort of environment that is only harmed by throwing guns into it.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Oct 5 2015 9:04 AM
nzlockie: So what you're saying is that the USA has a history of high crime, and youd like to throw more guns into the mix? Think arming more people is going to help?
I do. People with firearms almost never get touched here in Detroit. Criminals go after weak targets.

The primary reason Americans have guns is for defence. That is paranoia.
Absurd. It is not paranoia because it is a very real threat. Sure, it is easy to survive in a city one day as a tourist, but try living here with the actual gangs, rednecks, mobsters, and dirty cops breathing down your back.

How come we don't hear of mass shootings here?
Because it is associated with fame and attention here. Why do you think half of the school shootings in America consist of angry teens impersonating the Columbine shootings?
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Oct 5 2015 9:07 AM
The judgemental types from New Zealand do not seem to understand that you can easily get beat up or shot for stepping foot in the wrong places. I hardly understand half of the neighborhoods that are off limits to me, but if you walked through 6 neighborhoods alone at night in Detroit, you would get your ass kicked 12 times before you got home.
admin
By admin | Oct 5 2015 11:22 AM
Blackflag: That isn't an argument against gun control. I'd rather someone try to kick my ass than somebody try to shoot me.
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admin
By admin | Oct 5 2015 11:24 AM
Blackflag: People with firearms almost never get touched here in Detroit.
That is absurd. Criminals in Detroit must be really irrationally scared of guns.
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admin
By admin | Oct 5 2015 11:26 AM
ColeTrain: Armor, shields, walls etc are defenses. Guns are a weapon. You can't block a bullet flying at you using a gun. So you can't defend against guns using guns.
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ColeTrain
By ColeTrain | Oct 5 2015 11:31 AM
admin: You know what I meant.
"Man is not free unless government is limited" -- Ronald Reagan
Topics: http://tinyurl.com/oh9tm6u
admin
By admin | Oct 5 2015 11:37 AM
ColeTrain: The rhetoric is important. I think a lot of the gun lobby in the US uses that kind of language as a marketing gimmick, to help people feel "safe" when they hold a gun. In America, holding on to a firearm helps people to breathe easy. In most of the world it would put them on edge, make them be more careful, knowing how dangerous what they're holding really is. If you talked about guns as an "instrument of death", this would be a relatively normal reaction. If you talked about guns as a "self-defence" all the time, then the American reaction may be expected. Words are powerful tools like that.
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Blackflag
By Blackflag | Oct 5 2015 11:55 AM
admin: That isn't an argument against gun control. I'd rather someone try to kick my ass than somebody try to shoot me.
Being put into the hospital isn't as fun as you think. If you don't do anything about it, they will walk all over you and seek you out. If you go to the cops... well let's just say you better not go to the cops.

That is absurd. Criminals in Detroit must be really irrationally scared of guns.
What is absurd is that you think they wouldn't be. Unless you want your face blown off, you do not mess with people who have firearms. It almost always turns bloody. That is why they mark what people have firearms or not before they decide to mess with them.

You will often see people leave their firearm partially unconcealed so they wont get mugged, or when they are pulled aside and harassed they will reveal it in order to be allowed to walk away unharmed.

So you can't defend against guns using guns.
There are plenty of instances where people have defended their lives from an attacker using a firearm.

admin
By admin | Oct 5 2015 11:58 AM
Blackflag: OK. Say you have a gun, and I shoot you before you even see me. What use was your gun?
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Blackflag
By Blackflag | Oct 5 2015 11:58 AM
In most of the world it would put them on edge, make them be more careful, knowing how dangerous what they're holding really is.
That isn't true. America isn't even the highest gun owners per capita, and there are dozens of nations with around the same percentage of civilian gun owners.

America actually has stricter gun laws than most of the world, especially in Europe. A lot of data about gun ownership preventing crime actually comes from nations like Italy, Switzerland, and Poland.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Oct 5 2015 12:02 PM
admin: First of all you need to establish that anything under 7 calibers is not going to penetrate the human body. Even hollywood misrepresents that when they show people dying instantly upon being shot in the head, while in reality a bullet through your head, even through your brain, does not instantly kill a person. This is especially true for assault rifles which use small barrel frames.

Anyways, the firearm helps most in instances where you can predict a conflict coming. There are a couple of times where I was expecting trouble so I prepared myself just in case. It is pretty rare when someone acts aggressively without either party giving the slightest justification first.
admin
By admin | Oct 5 2015 12:07 PM
Blackflag: How common are non-lethal guns in America? Here in New Zealand they're basically only used by shooting clubs, because by law when hunting you must use a really high-powered weapon (we don't like the animals suffering too much when we shoot them).
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Blackflag
By Blackflag | Oct 5 2015 1:08 PM
admin: Did you think I was talking about non-lethal guns, because even something with two calibers can be lethal.

To answer your question though, tazers are quite prevalent, but ineffective.
admin
By admin | Oct 5 2015 1:10 PM
Blackflag: A bullet that is designed to incapacitate makes any kind of gun response useless. Even a taser is effective at bringing down a person with a firearm. Police have used them here before.
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Blackflag
By Blackflag | Oct 5 2015 1:12 PM
admin: Hunting with anything other than a rifle is pointless anyways. Even if you manage to kill game (which you wont), it becomes worthless.

Also there is an honor code which you are expected to abide by. If you injure an animal, you are supposed to shoot it in the head. Some people choose not to do this because they believe that allowing the animal to bleed out naturally improves the quality of the meat.
admin
By admin | Oct 5 2015 1:13 PM
Blackflag: High-powered bows with a gigantic draw strength can also work.
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Blackflag
By Blackflag | Oct 5 2015 1:15 PM
admin: Your police are fools! Outright fools if they use tazers on a person with a loaded weapon.
That is foolish and if an officer actually does that, then I wouldn't pity them if they died.

But yeah, there are types of bullets that incapacite, such as bean bags in shotguns, but they are rarely used since it has been long established that anything which does not penetrate the body is useless at stopping an attacker. Which is why it is against code to use bean bags or tazers on an armed individual, because the police officer will likely end up dead.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Oct 5 2015 1:16 PM
admin: Some hunters kill deer with shortbows made of wood too.
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