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Crow
By Crow | Jul 29 2016 4:12 PM
admin: You can say I'm conditioned into believing anything.

I can tell you for a fact that you were conditioned by the state.

Everybody who subscribes to anything, was conditioned by what they subscribed too.

In your case, an authoritative body that controls your life.

You're equally conditioned into believing what you believe.

Actually I can tell you exactly what conditioned me.

Modern media, classical literature, taught values, and a personal perspective.

But insofar as I am enjoying the benefits of living under a state I see no problem with it either.

Right.

A genuine house nigger.

Apologizing for the oppression of your own people, while the state gives you a cookie for being obedient.

The idea of tyranny of the majority rests on a particular conception of democracy. It is not inherent to the concept.

True democracy is void of states.

Any form of statist democracy (the fake kind since it doesn't actually exist) absolutely creates tyranny by the majority.

If the majority at a specific point in time makes the decisions, then the minority are the ones that need to be enslaved to them.

If anything I feel the minorities have more control over our government,

If a minority is predominant, then you are not living in a democracy.

Also, being enslaved to the minority is not an improvement.

If you're saying that I am the property of society, then I think that's a set problem since I'd be my own property.

So you think.

You are under the illusion of freedom.

Everything you are allowed to do is a privilege given by the state.

Try being in control for a change.

Public goods are a prime example of why you need institutions to effect some forms of good, because nobody is willing to pay for or produce them, but we all know we need them.

Public goods have and continue to exist without states.

Co-ops collectively manage community resources for example.

You might be conflating government with states again, because states are reliant on the institution of force.

People aren't stolen or imprisoned inherently.


Yes they are.

You are born, and the book of laws and social expectations is right there for public viewing.

People's movement is occasionally restricted to ensure safety. Like how the good guys tie up monsters in kiddie books to stop them hurting other people.

Like I said...

It is all for your own good
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admin
By admin | Jul 29 2016 4:32 PM
Crow: What if the decisions are made collaboratively by all the relevant stakeholders? And we force anyone making a decision to consult with everyone who might be affected by it, rather than only thinking of themselves? Because ultimately that's what I want, and I believe some states come close to that.

It's not a privilege given by a state, it's a right. A right is a privilege people have by default, a privilege is when you don't have it by default. And these rights don't exist because states say they do, they exist naturally, and are simply the subset of rights not mutually forfeited.

At the point where coops take people's money for something they don't want to buy, then I'd call it a state.

Being born doesn't steal or imprison you.
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Crow
By Crow | Jul 29 2016 4:53 PM
admin: : What if the decisions are made collaboratively by all the relevant stakeholders?

A system where 100% of people all collectively agree on everything?

At that point, why do you need police, jails, borders, and a political body?

It's not a privilege given by a state, it's a right.

Potato v Potatoe.

Everything you are allowed to do, is because you have permission to do so by the state.

IE, privilege

And these rights don't exist because states say they do, they exist naturally, and are simply the subset of rights not mutually forfeited.


Then let's add some other "natural" rights.

A right to shut up, a right to be abused, and a right to be killed by your fellow man.

At the point where coops take people's money for something they don't want to buy, then I'd call it a state.


A coop is voluntary. You choose to pay in.

A state forces you to pay in, or will punish you for disobeying.

Seems you would understand what a state is by now.

Being born doesn't steal or imprison you.

The state is a conceptual prison, because if you try to dissent, they will throw you into a literal prison.
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admin
By admin | Jul 29 2016 5:00 PM
Crow: You need state institutions because some people break their promises or don't want to go through the system to effect change.

There is a natural right to be killed by your fellow man. And we forfeit it together because 99.99% of people don't want that right.

If a coop is voluntarily providing something nobody wants provisioned then nobody would join.

I dissent from the government in numerous ways and I am not in prison.
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Crow
By Crow | Jul 29 2016 5:07 PM
admin: You need state institutions because some people break their promises or don't want to go through the system to effect change.

Right.

If they do not come willingly, then we need to knock their heads in, and make them think about their mistakes while sitting in a dark wet cell.

If a coop is voluntarily providing something nobody wants provisioned then nobody would join.

LOL! What if the coop was good?

Most coops are led by representatives of local businesses and community leaders. Pretty sure they can determine what should be produced. Also those that voluntarily fund coops are going to have some voice in the direction the coop takes.

I dissent from the government in numerous ways and I am not in prison.


I am sure that even in New Zealand, breaking the law will be met with punishment.
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admin
By admin | Jul 29 2016 5:14 PM
Crow: If the coop produced something people wanted that was just too expensive then that's not a public good.

You don't need to break the law to dissent.
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Crow
By Crow | Jul 29 2016 5:26 PM
admin: If the coop produced something people wanted that was just too expensive then that's not a public good.


It doesn't have to be too expensive. Talk about axioms.

The only requirement for a public good is that it is a good produced by the public.



You don't need to break the law to dissent.

You could whine, but that is permissible.

The state prefers babies.
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admin
By admin | Jul 29 2016 5:30 PM
Crow: Then you misunderstand the economic definition of a public good. Which is a good nobody wants to buy but everyone wants to have.

As part of the state, I quite like discourse as a means to solving problems.
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Crow
By Crow | Jul 29 2016 5:40 PM
admin: That isn't the definition I was taught. Not saying it isn't a legitimate one, but I just have heard another definition more often.

And that is something that can be produced by a coop, although in my experience, coops will pay for a commodity that is beyond a reasonable market price, in order to provide it at an affordable price towards the community. That sounds preferable to giving out freebies too.

Dialogue is not exclusive to the state. Actually you would find more dialogue without one. Regular people would be arguing problems they have control over, and not elected representatives.
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admin
By admin | Jul 29 2016 5:43 PM
Crow: That is why I argue over who I trust to do that arguing for me. Since there are too many political concerns for me to deal with every day.
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Crow
By Crow | Jul 29 2016 5:45 PM
admin: That is why I argue over who I trust to do that arguing for me. Since there are too many political concerns for me to deal with every day.

That's because you want to save the whole world and control everything to perfection.

Great governance focuses on necessity.
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admin
By admin | Jul 29 2016 5:47 PM
Crow: Can't say a perfect life doesn't sound tempting to me. Most of what humans do is about making their lives a little less short, meaningless and miserable.
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Crow
By Crow | Jul 29 2016 5:52 PM
admin: Can't say a perfect life doesn't sound tempting to me.

That is the appeal.

Reality dictates that evil is one half of a perfect stick.

Perfection is not the a comfortable life without any pain, like you seem to think it is.

Most of what humans do is about making their lives a little less short, meaningless and miserable.

Which creates the reverse effect.

Most are too stupid to realize that the natural non-constructed world was the greatest of all. Constructions were created to satisfy greed, because our societies have always had trouble understanding that less is more.
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admin
By admin | Jul 29 2016 5:55 PM
Crow: Life is much less short, meaningless and miserable, in my view, today than it was 100 years ago. Something's clearly working.
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