EDEB8 - Ultimate Online Debating
About Us   Debate    Judge   Forum

A message to the users of Edb8

< Return to subforum
Page: 12345678Most Recent
Mikal
By Mikal | May 26 2015 9:40 AM
Blackflag: Win/Loss goes hand in hand with win loss. Elo just assigns a value to the win loss record in question. If you have a 50 / 50 win loss considering the level of the competitors you are facing, you are probably going to be near a base elo. That is true with any elo system, it's just a number but i'm defintiley not saying it's not fixable, i'm saying the problem with elitism is always going to exist, but we can discourage it even if it does. For example, set a elo system up that discourages noob sniping.

Start at 1500 base and depending on the level of the person you face, you gain more. So when you get to a certian point and are still beating people at base elo, you gain nothing or like 1 point from it. That stops noobsniping because there is no gain from it. With proper vote moderation and a critera for voting, you remove bias out of the equation. Elo can be a great thing if used properly, the system just has to be good. The DDO system is a prime example of a failed system, that does not mean admin cannot improve on it and do it the right way.
Mikal
By Mikal | May 26 2015 9:44 AM
admin: My advice to improve the site and I really would consdier it

(1) Set a different place on the profile page to honor elo from different sites, so when people transfer they won't feel like they have lost their work in ohter places. You can include their elo and a link to the site where their elo is gained. That will encourage people to join without feeling like they lost their feats.

(2) I'm not sure if it's been done, but do a badge system. When bluesteel and I were pondering about starting a debating website we threw this idea around. Like if you get 3 wins in a row, give someone a badge, if you post a certain number of times give someone a badge. Give them incentive to participate.

(3) I don't know if you would consider this and it may be a down the road thing or something you will never do, but I told max about this and he basically said no there is no chance but I thought it would be cool. Add a currency system. If you win a debate you get points that you can spend for different font sizes, text, symbols, badges, etc.

Crazy enough I think if you make debate into a game , it encourages people to participate. This is not proven but I would be willing to bet it would drive people to do debates and actively participate because of incentives.
Mikal
By Mikal | May 26 2015 9:47 AM
admin: Actually if you added like a html profile customization, that would be stellar too. I practically offered to do a strip dance for juggle if I could customize my profile, but still got a no.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | May 26 2015 9:49 AM
: Win/Loss goes hand in hand with win loss
*Derp* lol

Elo just assigns a value to the win loss record in question
Not true. ELO has more factors than just win/loss. For example, the current ELO of the person you are debating and the current ELO your own profile holds.

Start at 1500 base and depending on the level of the person you face, you gain more. So when you get to a certian point and are still beating people at base elo, you gain nothing or like 1 point from it. That stops noobsniping because there is no gain from it. With proper vote moderation and a critera for voting, you remove bias out of the equation. Elo can be a great thing if used properly, the system just has to be good. The DDO system is a prime example of a failed system, that does not mean admin cannot improve on it and do it the right way.
I've always seen you as the best case for why we should not have ELO, so forgive me if I am a bit skeptical. I think a lot of your success can be contributed to the very problems of elitism and popularity bias.

I reject your arguments on noobsniping. Often a "noob" can provide an equal or amiable challenge to an expert debater. When the expert debater beats the rather good debater who just started on the site, the expert debater wont be accredited anything. Sounds like another leak in the plumbing.

You claim ELO is a failed system on DDO. Is designing the formula to end noobsniping your only solution? Do you have a solution towards elitism and popularity bias besides "words of discouragement?"
Thumbs up from:
Chuz Life
By Chuz Life | May 26 2015 9:50 AM
Mikal: The fact that Chuz is complaining about RFDs is a bit ironic though, as his voting rights was removed almost permanently for blatantly voting on abortion topics and only voting for pro nearly 100 percent of the time.

You need to get your facts straight.

My voting rights were never removed. I left DDO in protest because I had ONE vote removed by BlueSteel for the lamest of reasons.

My voting record on DDO is what it is because I opt to NOT vote in many of the debates where I don't want to discourage members who share my views.

We are NOT required to vote against our personal interests on EITHER site and we are permitted to pick and choose the debates we might WANT to vote on. The vast majority of members do the very same thing without even thinking about it. It's one of nearly a hundred reasons for what the elo scores are such a farce.
Thumbs up from:
The Supreme Court needs to explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under one law but not under any others.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | May 26 2015 9:50 AM
contributed
*attributed
Mikal
By Mikal | May 26 2015 9:54 AM
Blackflag: You misunderstand the point. I agreed that DDO system is abused. I can do 1,000 debates and jump to the number one spot. Why is that though? That is because the system was designed poorly. If I say debated Roy, I got 38 points and if I debated a noob I could 30. Why would someone bother doing a hard debate when they gain practically the same amount of increase? If you do the system correctly, past a certain point , you would gain nothing for debating someone that is low and only gain from beating someone around your level. That by itself encourages high level debates, and people that "noobsniped" would immediately stop debating or just drop back to the elo they deserve because they would lose

Use DDO for a counter base. Take DK for example, he is an example of a primary noob sniper in ways. He is around top 15 on the leader boards and has lost to almost every user on their, myself included (twice and he lost badly). He still has nearly 6k. Why is this? Because he only gets wins off new members, if you corrected the system , past a certain point he would gain nothing because all of his wins are from new users, and he is not capable of debating with high level people. That is not a call out but a valid example. There are ways to improve on it.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | May 26 2015 9:58 AM
Why would someone bother doing a hard debate when they gain practically the same amount of increase? If you do the system correctly, past a certain point , you would gain nothing for debating someone that is low and only gain from beating someone around your level. That by itself encourages high level debates, and people that "noobsniped" would immediately stop debating or just drop back to the elo they deserve because they would lose
I debunked the same claims a while back. ELO discourages high level debates because they stop users with low ELO from debating users with high ELO. Especially with popularity bias it would be unlikely for that low ELO user to win anyways.
Mikal
By Mikal | May 26 2015 9:58 AM
Chuz Life: Being a part of conversations with moderation and the past president of the site, I can promise you that your voting privileges were on the way to being removed. Strictly because of your voting patterns, but that is not a conversation I want to have. What is past is past


No you are not required to vote against your personal bias, but when you make a counter argument to a presentation saying that personal bias is a primary reason not to implement a system and you are a person contributing to that, you really should re evaluate the critique. The critique has merit, but the way you are presenting it is fallacious.
admin
By admin | May 26 2015 10:02 AM
Chuz Life: Do you agree or disagree that elo scores are completely subjective when compared to actual wins and losses in something like a game of chess?
Disagree. Elo scores are equally objective. There is no question about this. The only question is whether the JUDGING of the debates was objective. Once again, Elo measures not skill, but the statistical likelihood of beating an opponent.

On edeb8, I'd say the vast majority of wins were deserved.

You say this as you are flirting with the idea of incorporating the DDO's elo scores her on this site.
We already have a better Elo system, so we'd never do that.
We might allow a member to list their DDO scores on their profile. That is all that is being discussed. I can't believe this is such a big deal.

the more you embrace the bootlickers you've been courting lately
Funny, "I've been courting..." right... and I've totally "embraced" them...
Trolls have been driven out from this site routinely. I simply don't judge members for their behavior on other sites. If somebody comes here and WANTS to debate here seriously, I don't stop them. I listen to all genuine suggestions, from anybody. And I don't think that having something like this as a future possibility in any way undermines serious debate on this site. You can still have a serious debate but list your record on another site on your profile, on the debate tab. It doesn't change anything fundamentally.
I'm the main developer for the site. If you have any problems, ideas, questions or concerns please send me a message.
Let's revive the forums!
Mikal
By Mikal | May 26 2015 10:02 AM
Blackflag: It does not discourage new users from debating members with a high rating, it encourages it. If a new user beat a high ranked user, the would statistically gain triple that of beating a new user. Include proper voting moderation and a system to establish what a valid RFD is, then you eliminate that problem.

(1) It stops members from noob sniping because past a certain point you would gain nothing
(2) In encourages high level debates, because high ranked members could only gain points from other high ranked members
(3) It encourages a trial by fire system, because if a new user beat a high ranked member, their ranked would jump extremely high when compared to debating another new user

The entire system drives on the fact that it is designed properly, chess has it nailed pretty well. There are even ways to improve on that.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | May 26 2015 10:02 AM
Use DDO for a counter base. Take DK for example, he is an example of a primary noob sniper in ways. He is around top 15 on the leader boards and has lost to almost every user on their, myself included (twice and he lost badly). He still has nearly 6k. Why is this? Because he only gets wins off new members, if you corrected the system , past a certain point he would gain nothing because all of his wins are from new users, and he is not capable of debating with high level people. That is not a call out but a valid example. There are ways to improve on it.
I see what debates with "high level" members really look like. Usually it is the same inzone judging in favor of each other. I consider you the best example of inzones on DDO.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | May 26 2015 10:04 AM
It does not discourage new users from debating members with a high rating, it encourages it. If a new user beat a high ranked user, the would statistically gain triple that of beating a new user. Include proper voting moderation and a system to establish what a valid RFD is, then you eliminate that problem.

(1) It stops members from noob sniping because past a certain point you would gain nothing
(2) In encourages high level debates, because high ranked members could only gain points from other high ranked members
(3) It encourages a trial by fire system, because if a new user beat a high ranked member, their ranked would jump extremely high when compared to debating another new user

The entire system drives on the fact that it is designed properly, chess has it nailed pretty well. There are even ways to improve on that.

If high rating users have no incentive to debate new users, then no, it doesn't encourage high level debating. ELO, like communism, attempts to control the economics of debating.
Mikal
By Mikal | May 26 2015 10:05 AM
Blackflag: I had power on DDO , but most of my debates where from open voting. New users spam votes because i'm the top user, etc. That is easily avoided, but that is not saying I did not have high level debates. I bunked quite a few top users on my stay over there. I even used myself as an example for why the elo system is broken, so I concur with you that it is broken. That does not mean that you cannot fix it.

It's quite easy to improve on.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | May 26 2015 10:06 AM
Once again, Elo measures not skill, but the statistical likelihood of beating an opponent.
The words are interchangeable. You say potatoe I say potato

On edeb8, I'd say the vast majority of wins were deserved.
I agree, but ELO still presents a future problem. It would be in the sites best intrests to avoid problems instead of waiting for them to happen before deciding to fix said problems.
admin
By admin | May 26 2015 10:07 AM
Blackflag: That ELO score can still be made into a big deal, and it often is made into a big deal at that.
The only people I've seen making a big deal about Elo scores on edeb8 are people complaining that others make a big deal out of them.

If it isn't to measure talent then what is it for and why do we need it?
It's the STATISTICAL likelihood of beating somebody based on previous results. We need it for the same reasons tennis needs it.

Such as debating people who forfeit a lot
Lol, then you'd only have average as Elo scores. If you forfeit a lot the Elo increase of your opponents diminishes. That's the point of the metric.
On edeb8 we do enforce a minimum gain/loss of 5 points primarily to help newer members, but in practice once people complete a couple of debates it makes little difference.

something Stalin did to break the DDO elo system,
... which is totally different

subjective popularity biases
... which you've never proven

It is the sort of thing which would drive me away from the site.
Why? "Oh my God somebody wrote their DDO Elo score on their profile, I'm ditching the site!"
Thumbs up from:
I'm the main developer for the site. If you have any problems, ideas, questions or concerns please send me a message.
Let's revive the forums!
Mikal
By Mikal | May 26 2015 10:07 AM
Blackflag: A high rated user is encouraged *not* to noob snipe. That does not correlate that they will not debate new users. If you get a challenge and want to debate some one for hte sake of debating, then it still will happen.

New member joins and messages Larz for a match. Larz gains zero elo but wants to debate because the guy asked him too. User gets a chance to upstage a new member, older member debates to help the new member, and even if he wins his elo score is not inflated. You can still debate for the sake of the debate, but your elo score is not overly inflated from new users snipes.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | May 26 2015 10:09 AM
I had power on DDO , but most of my debates where from open voting. New users spam votes because i'm the top user, etc. That is easily avoided, but that is not saying I did not have high level debates.
Glad we are in agreement that popularity bias exists.

I bunked quite a few top users on my stay over there. I even used myself as an example for why the elo system is broken, so I concur with you that it is broken. That does not mean that you cannot fix it.
There isn't enough incentive to fix it, and besides ending newb sniping, I still haven't heard of an amiable solution towards ending popularity bias. I am receptive towards a solution. If you show me a solution, then I'll be defending ELO myself. Until then, I'll stand against ELO.
Thumbs up from:
admin
By admin | May 26 2015 10:10 AM
Blackflag: This is a fair point.
I'm the main developer for the site. If you have any problems, ideas, questions or concerns please send me a message.
Let's revive the forums!
Blackflag
By Blackflag | May 26 2015 10:10 AM
A high rated user is encouraged *not* to noob snipe. That does not correlate that they will not debate new users. If you get a challenge and want to debate some one for hte sake of debating, then it still will happen.
Great. It would be even better if all debaters were just for the sake of debating.
Page: 12345678Most Recent