Ukraine v. Russia

The turmoil that has taken place in Ukraine has left many angry. But Russia has claimed they are imposing stability in the region of Crimea in order to protect ethnic Russians in Ukraine. Should Russia be allowed to host a referendum in Crimea?

Tophatdoc: I like how the Russians come up with the most creative excuses for world policing. Personally I don't think ethnicity should have anything to do with it - in a humanitarian crisis the right thing to do is help with aid, not soldiers.

There's also a lot of ethnic Russians in Israel, but Russia is not about to march into Israel with an army and demand a referendum just because there's been tensions since forever between Israel and everybody else in the middle east. In my view Russia is clearly more interested in their own national interests than those of the Ukraine.

There are some situations where I think this kind of intervention would be warranted. If France were to move in to Chad tomorrow and hold a referendum I'd be cool with that. There's also some more tricky borderline circumstances where the line to an invasion would be difficult not to cross because of perverse incentives (Sudan). And there are some countries that should almost certainly be split up without the need for any intervention because they're useless states anyway (Somalia). And there's countries where intervention is simply not warranted at all really (most countries).

Russia does have some bad incentives for their work in the Ukraine. But more importantly I don't think this was necessary. It's not like Syria where the two sides don't want a good relationship. I bet Kofi Annan could end this crisis in one week if a diplomat of his caliber (or anybody else with that kind of experience) were to be sent there on an official mission. I mean, New Zealand has been discussing somewhat analogous stuff like getting rid of the queen for some time, but we don't have massive revolutions over it. If the Ukraine pulls themselves together, Russia will no longer have any excuse to be there.

admin: If you send aid will it get there? Or will the Gov. sell it for more military like the Kim's?

Pinkie: There is this thing called oversight. How do you think UNICEF and such have been getting into Syria? If international aid organisations can do it (when they're not corrupt) then govts can do it. No need to put in troops.

admin: True.

admin: So you think that a partition will not happen at this point? From what I have read it seems many of the ethnic Russians have supported the Russian invasion of the Crimea area. While the Ukrainian government is demanding the United States and the United Kingdom take action. Other nations have steadily mobilized as result of Russia's actions(Poland, Lithuania). I disagree with you about the United Nations. I don't think Kofi Annan will be able to do anything unless this was taken to the UN General Assembly. Russia will just use their veto power within the Security Council. China has also made it clear they side with Russia. I don't see how the UN can take action on this issue.

admin: So you think that a partition will not happen at this point? From what I have read it seems many of the ethnic Russians have supported the Russian invasion of the Crimea area. While the Ukrainian government is demanding the United States and the United Kingdom take action. Other nations have steadily mobilized as result of Russia's actions(Poland, Lithuania). I disagree with you about the United Nations. I don't think Kofi Annan will be able to do anything unless this was taken to the UN General Assembly. Russia will just use their veto power within the Security Council. China has also made it clear they side with Russia. I don't see how the UN can take action on this issue.

Tophatdoc: Double post.

Tophatdoc: There's two conflicts going on here as I see it. The first is within the Ukraine itself, and secondly with Russia. The second conflict is premised on the first. The entire Russian excuse for them being there - protection - requires that there must be something to protect them from. If there is no first conflict, then there's no reason for the second and Russians could be easily forced to leave.

The UN can intervene in internal conflicts (like civil war) as well as external. That the internal conflict ought to be resolved is in everybody's interest here.

I think a rearrangement of the borders is looking quite likely, simply because the Ukrainians have demonstrated an inability to work this out themselves.

admin: How do you think Ukraine should as a country deal with this?

admin: Entirely agree with this statement.
It seems very likely that Crimea will soon be part of Russia.

The thing I find the most distasteful here is that we have let Russia get away with this. Again.
It has sent a clear message to Russia (and china) that if you want to bully your neighbors we'll let you.

If Russia was genuinely concerned for the citizens of the Ukraine, there were diplomatic channels it could have worked through. Stand by for Ireland to liberate boston on behalf of its ethnic citizens!

nzlockie: Or England to liberate New Zealand from this Mao... hang on, I'm about 200 years behind the times aren't I?

Whenever you think the world has moved on from this kind of stuff, it hasn't.

What should Ukraine do?

Pinkie: In my view? Finish their bickering with themselves ASAP.

admin: I was saying the UN wouldn't intervene because China and Russia are members of the UN Security Council and would just simply use their veto power. The UN may intervene if the vote is left up to the UN General Assembly and they agree to intervene..

Tophatdoc: Ofc the security council can also override the general assembly. What I guess I'm saying in response to that is that while the UN security council would never agree to any plan sorting out peace between Russia and Ukraine, they would approve a plan to sort out the internal conflict within the Ukraine. Frankly that conflict is actually quite detrimental to Russian interests too (as all civil wars in neighboring countries are), so they have an incentive to approve that. There is a long-run flow on impact on the Crimea, and if the diplomats work fast enough, they may catch the Russians by surprise by removing all the legitimacy for their occupation.

admin: I don't know about that; it appears you are more optimistic about the results in this case. I don't see the United Nations doing anything of significance in

Tophatdoc: in Ukraine*

admin: Oh okay.

Tophatdoc: I would agree only because Ukraine wouldn't petition them to. But if the point of this thread is to ask what should happen I'm sticking to my answer.