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That Alternative Medicine has greater efficacy than Standard Care

(PRO)
0 points
(CON)
WINNER!
5 points
crossedcrossed (PRO)
Thanks for instigating this debate

"According to the WHO, between 65% and 80% of the populations of developing countries currently use medicinal plants as remedies"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4433216/
If the did not work why do 80 percent of the world uses plants as medicine.


"70 percent of new drugs come from mother nature"
https://news.mongabay.com/2007/03/70-of-new-drugs-come-from-mother-nature/
If there as no medicine in plants why does 70 percent of new drugs come from plants.pharmaceuticals are the bootlegged version of what god created.




"To date, 35,000-70,000 plant species have been screened for their medicinal use. Plants especially those with ethnopharmacological uses have been the primary sources of medicine for early drug discovery. Fabricant and Farnsworth,"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3560124/
It seems god put medicine in plants for all disease that exist.



it is estimated that we have only discovered 15 percent of the medicine in plants.
"it is estimated that of the 300,000 plant species that exist in the
world, only 15% have been evaluated to determine their pharmacological
potential"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4433216/
I disagree with this 300'000 number.I think there is more.
Why turmeric is the new superfood | food & wine


Tumeric has been shown to heal brain damage done by schizophrenic medication



"Additionally, turmeric’s antioxidants have been found to reverse the  effects of damage caused by pharmaceuticals, particularly in the  treatment of schizophrenia. Commonly-prescribed antipsychotics often  cause involuntary muscle movements and severe behavioral changes. One  study found that when treated with curcumin, the effects of the motor  disorder tardive dyskinesia were reversed."

https://dailyhealthpost.com/turmeric-brain/



turmeric was worth more then gold in the day's of Jesus

https://organixx.com/magi-complexx/



Olive oil can kill cancer cells but not normal cells.This i the complete opposite of chemotherapy.Which kills both good cells and cancer cells.

https://www.medicaldaily.com/olive-oil-compound-kills-cancer-cells-less-hour-all-powerful-oleocanthal-322904






Benefits of myrrh oil.



Inhibits Microbial Growth


Astringent Properties

Relieves Cough


Fights Fungal Infections

Stimulates the Nervous System

and 12 other things
https://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/essential-oils/health-benefits-of-myrrh-essential-oil.html



I use a lot of herbs personally.I buy my herbs from the health ranger.Because most herbs have lead and mercury and other heavy metals from chemicals.
he has some good herbs. he has a lot of variety and there clean.
For example he sells a 7 different mushroom pack with 7 different mushrooms.I am going to start talking about herbs i eat.He sells good turmeric to and other stuff.He sells turmeric to


"Organic Reishi Powder, Organic
Shiitake Powder, Organic Cordyceps Powder, Organic Turkey Tail Powder,
Organic Maitake Powder, Organic Chaga Powder, Organic Lion's Mane Powder"

plus there lab tested for heavy metals
https://www.healthrangerstore.com/


lion mane health benefits

10 benefits of lion’s mane mushroom – lionsmanebenefits
it is a cool looking mushroom.Note lionmane was specifically royalty exclusive during many time periods




Presentation2012 jane







"In Chinese medical theory, Lion’s Mane mushroom was used to alleviate
“Qi” or “vital energy” deficiency as it was believed that it would
restore balance to the body and alleviate symptoms of insomnia,
depression and low immunity. The very fact that Lion’s Mane is often
referred to as “yamabushitake” in some medicinal accounts may be a
reference to the ornamental garment “suzukake” that is worn by the
“Yamabushi”, a sect of ascetic mountain hermits from Japan"


https://nootropicsreviewnerd.com/lions-mane-mushroom/






i only buy triple A lab tested herbs from health ranger and or lost empire herbs.There is lead and mercury in many herbs.From evil chemtrails.Screw mountainroseherbs for giving me Slight mad hatters disease.





Screw the big pharma and there pharmakeia magic



  1. the use or the administering of drugs
  2. poisoning
  3. sorcery, magical arts, often found in connection with idolatry and fostered by it
  4. metaph. the deceptions and seductions of idolatry

https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/pharmakeia.html


There snake wand of doom



pharmaceutical industry is a drug cartel


1.pharmaceuticals are the 4th leading cause of death . this is because pharmaceuticals it is meant to harm you

https://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/11/20/how-pharmaceuticals-came-to-be-the-4th-leading-cause-of-death-in-america/


.2
over 100 thousand people die each year because they take prescription medication. this is because prescription medications are meant to harm you.

https://newspunch.com/100000-deaths-per-year-in-the-u-s-caused-by-prescription-drugs/


.3
big pharma gives millions of dollars to politicians because they know that there drugs are dangerous and they have to bribe people to make there drugs legal. There drugs are dangerous because there are meant to harm you.

http://www.drugsdb.com/blog/big-pharma-political-contributions.html


4
.big pharma corruption started the opioid epidemic. The opioid epidemic destroyed the lives of soccer moms who says no to illegal drugs but believe legal drugs are safer. This happened because drugs are meant to harm you.


https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/saving-normal/201710/pharma-corruption-started-the-opioid-epidemic
5
.We kill millions of babies inside abortion clinics. They do not even call them babies but fetus. this is the work of pharmakeai sorcerers.

6
.We play the I'm not crazy game with our children we play this game because pharmaceuticals are meant to harm you. While they claim to be helping us they treat them like experiment animals.


7
And prescription drugs are more dangerous than illegal drugs. This is because prescription drugs are meant to harm you
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/wicked-deeds/201404/prescription-drugs-are-more-deadly-street-drugshttps://www.blvdcenters.org/blog/street-drugs-or-prescription-drugs


8
Prescription medication is the number 1 reason for overdose beating out illegal drugs. This is because it is meant to hurt you
http://naturalsociety.com/prescriptions-drugs-now-the-leading-cause-of-death-by-overdose/


9
We put aborted babies in our vaccines. we do this because vaccines are meant to harm you.
but we are flooded by fake news like this one done by ABC. were they say the aborted babies are not harmful and even the future catholic pope approves of it. disgusting abc even claims it does not interfere with the disgusting catholic bible.
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/aborted-fetuses-vaccines/story?id=29005539

10
And can we safely ignore those people who claim to perform magical rituals in abortion clinics

https://stillnessinthestorm.com/2019/04/former-satanist-i-performed-satanic-rituals-inside-abortion-clinics/
11
.The world health association symbol is a snake on a stick
https://www.who.int/
this is because it is meant to harm you and it is snake oil.It is actually the snake gods staff Acilipuis

12
One of the evidence for the fema cam conspiracy theory is one of the medical code in Obama care sanctions death by guillotines. This is because it is meant to harm you.

https://beforeitsnews.com/v3/healthcare/2014/2454424.html
13
Prescription medication usually has a long list of side effects for example Prozac causes yellow eyes and skin and thought of suicide and 120 plus other things. These side effect that have nothing to do with what the drug is treating. and have no way of coming naturally unless they were designed to do such
https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/fluoxetine-oral-route/side-effects/drg-20063952

14
Some mass shooting were caused because the shooter was taking prescription drugs and suffered from the side effect suicide thought or actions.
over 1500 hundred cases
https://www.cchrint.org/2017/10/10/another-mass-shooting-another-psychiatric-drug/

15
They put prescription drugs in our tap water. These pharmaceuticals have absurd side effects. They put prescription drugs in our water to hurt us. The reason you need a prescription to get these drugs is because the drugs are dangerous. so why is it in our tap water. available to everyone. Unless it is meant to harm.
https://drpompa.com/cellular-health/home-water-filtration-systems-dangers-tap-water/




Return To Top | Posted:
2020-01-23 13:23:06
| Speak Round
GuitarKirbyGuitarKirby (CON)
Welcome to another exciting Edeb8!
A Thanks to my opponent for accepting the challenge, and all judges who take part at the end!

Section 1 - Rebuttal
It seems my opponent is under the impression that this debate is about whether or not plants have healing properties. It isn't, and Con agrees that many plants have healing properties, and are often used in standard care and development of medicine. It would be rather hypocritical to say otherwise as I took an aspirin for a headache only two days ago, which is derived from salicylic acid, present in willow bark1

My opponent has even posted an image of Myrrh that has a disclaimer stating that "These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA. They are not intended to treat, diagnose, cure or prevent disease." Presumably my opponent intends to show the efficacy of alternative solutions without any studies from regulatory administrations, which is probably going to be difficult as most studies on medicine, alternative or otherwise, are done by them.

My opponent has also decided to harp on the morphology of the word Pharmaceutical, which they are welcome to do, but standard care involves much more than just drugs. Indeed, doctors recommend better diet and exercise regularly for patients2, which has literally nothing to do with pharmaceutical care. Symbols of medical associations, word morphology, and pharmaceutical industry corruption have very little to do with the efficacy of care. As a reminder, the question we are attempting to answer is whether one type of care is superior to another when it comes to end results.

My opponent has mentioned that drugs have side effects; this is listed for a reason. If the possibility of the side effects is distasteful to those taking these drugs, then they shouldn't take them, regardless of whether it makes the symptoms they are trying to treat reduce in intensity or not. Indeed, even some of my opponent's favorites have side effects; turmeric is known to cause gastrointestinal problems when taken in medical grade dosages (and barely qualifies as alternative in any case, as it has had extensive research and is even recommended by primary care physicians on occasion as a dietary supplement)3.

Additionally, using a store that sells supplements to tell you why supplements are better than actual medicine seems unwise. It's like trusting a book printer who tells you ebooks are bad, or a Sony salesman that says you can't trust Samsung products - does my opponent have an unbiased, trustworthy source to back up their claims about pharmaceutical medicine and these supposedly natural alternatives?

My opponent misunderstood their first source. Between 65% and 80% of the populations of developing countries use medicinal plants. Countries without the infrastructure or resources to have a refined medical system as found in developing countries. I'll circle back to this point in a bit, but for clarity, is my opponent going to trust WHO as a source, or not? Because they have listed them as a source in favor of their argument and then spent several paragraphs on why they are an untrustworthy source.

On the subject of vaccines, the ingredient list might make people uncomfortable, but we are discussing efficacy, not general grossness. By this measure the question is "do vaccines slow or stop the spread of disease?" and the answer is a resounding yes under even the most basic analysis. According to the CDC, some diseases have been effectively eradicated, including polio and smallpox4.

Section 2 - In Favor of Standard Care
Standard care, or non-alternative medicine, is studied using the scientific method. We know that this type of care works because it has been proved to work. Pharmacology is an advanced field that supports standard care, but there are many fields that fall under this umbrella. Going to see your doctor for a regular checkup once every three months is standard care. Exercising and improving your diet is standard care. Using prescription medication as directed is standard care, as well. My opponent has spent all their time talking about why pharmaceutical drugs are bad but has spent almost no time discussing why alternative care is superior. 

Here's a thought; developing countries which, as my opponent stated, use medicinal plants as remedies in a majority of the population, have lower life expectancy than developed countries with access to standard care5. This tells us quite a bit about the efficacy of the two options, doesn't it?

Let's spend a minute talking about care that doesn't even involve a visit to the doctor. I go for a run with my dog and turn my ankle wrong. After swearing angrily at the completely flat concrete I manage to do this on, I take a quick drive to a local drugstore and pick up a bottle of ibuprofen. I go home and take two (as recommended on the bottle), elevate my now swollen ankle, and put an ice pack on it. These are all steps recommended by physicians; ibuprofen reduces pain and inflammation, elevating your injuries above your heart reduces blood flow and also helps with inflammation, and ice both numbs pain and, again, reduces inflammation. I wake up the next day, and the swelling of my turned ankle has gone down, along with the pain. At no point did I take any addictive, overly-powerful pharmaceuticals, nor did I have to visit a doctor.

Another example, this time involving a doctor. I've never had my tonsils removed, so I'm prone to bacteria that cause throat infections. In the fall I get a sore throat, stuffy nose and ears, and run a low fever. I call in to work and go to my doctor, who runs a fast culture and finds that I have strep throat. He writes a prescription for amoxicillin, an antibiotic drug derived from fungi and on the World Health Organizations list of Essential Medicines6. I take it as directed and after a few days, my symptoms subside. Unlike my opponent's reference to mushrooms as a supplement, this is a carefully studied drug that has its effects well documented. I challenge Pro to find an unbiased scientific study that found an alternative medical treatment of strep throat superior to an antibiotic solution - indeed, can they find any situation where an alternative medical solution delivered better results more regularly than standard care? I suppose we'll find out.


Return To Top | Posted:
2020-01-23 23:35:16
| Speak Round
crossedcrossed (PRO)




I know what the debate is my argument is a simple one.

Alternative medicine like turmeric has over 100 heath benefits.
in the article 100 health benefits of turmeric it list 100 health benefits of turmeric
https://www.turmericforhealth.com/turmeric-benefits/100-awesome-health-benefits-of-turmeric-curcumin


While with prescription medication there are like 100 side effects.For example Prozac
https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/fluoxetine-oral-route/side-effects/drg-20063952
100 health properties or 100 side effects you choose

Side effect info
  • "American patients also suffer from about 80 million mild side effects a year,"
             https://ethics.harvard.edu/blog/risky-drugs-why-fda-cannot-be-trusted

  • "Every year, more than 2 million Americans suffer from serious adverse drug reactions. According to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), these reactions cause about 100,000 deaths per year, making prescription drugs the fourth-leading cause of death in the country."
             https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2008/04/12/the-terrifying-side-effects-of-prescription-drugs.aspx



FDA
One of Cons argument is that herbs are not Examined by the FDA.
Given how corrupt the FDA is this is a good thing.
For example the FDA patented medical properties from the plant kratom to make a drug. then made the plant kratom illegal.So you can not use the natural stuff but  would have to use there synthetic version of kratom.Instead of the natural kratom.FDA clearly has unfair biased for drugs instead of herbs.Most prescription drugs can not pass safety test.Unless big pharma lobby's billions of dollars to make there dangerous drugs become legal. Opioids are not safe.That is why they spends billions to make those health concerns go away.FDA turns blind eye  when there pharmaceutical master want them to.
https://redice.tv/news/big-pharma-s-patents-on-kratom-alkaloids-expose-the-real-reason-dea-is-banning-this-plant
https://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant/o-t-lounge/louisiana-taking-another-stab-at-making-kratom-illegal-to-appease-big-pharma/84733994/
https://theantimedia.com/big-pharma-billion-lobbying-government/

Proven to work
one of Cons argument is pharmaceutical drugs are proven to work. herbs takes this argument easily.70 percent of new drugs comes from plants.Pharmaceutical mostly only  have chemist and scientific testing proving the effectiveness of the drug.But this can be biased. But herbs can not be biased because it has thousands of years of history To go with the scientific testing showing it to be true.Herbs have a lot of scientific testing with over 70 thousand documented medical plants.But herbs have scientific testing from a lot of civilizations that have existed in the past.The yellow chinese emperor had a book with over 300 documented plant medicines.While prescription drugs only have testing done in modern times.
If all the proven study's on medical properties in plants or Indian and Chinese medicine is not enough.There is another way to find out if a plant has medical properties and that is drug interaction. drug interaction is when the medicine in a prescription drug interacts with the medicine in  a herb. There would be no way for herbs to interact with drugs if the herb did not have medical properties.This 100 percent proves that there is medicine in herbs.Herbs pass the proven to work spot better then drugs.
https://www.drugs.com/slideshow/herb-drug-interactions-1069

"The Chinese 'Yellow Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine', was written in 2697 BC and is the oldest surviving medical book in China. This landmark text contains information about the properties of over 300 different plants and their medical uses, which suggests they may even have preceded the Egyptians in their use and knowledge of plant based medicines."
https://www.quinessence.com/history-of-aromatherapy

Corruption
Cons says that corruption has nothing to do with the effectiveness of care.This is not true.Every year big pharma bribe politicians with billions of dollars to get there drugs legalized.The reason why they  need to be bribed in order to be put on the market for standard care.Is because these drugs are dangerous and should not be used for standard care.But these deadly drugs are in use because of corruptions.These drugs would never pass a safety inspection.That is why they bribed politicans.Most prescription drugs would not pass a safety test.They have to be bribed in order to be on the market.They feed politicians so much money.
https://naturalsociety.com/big-pharma-spent-record-amounts-lobbying-2018-report-shows-7740/



Side effects
These plants have been taken for thousands of years with no side effects and  when an article says there are side effects it is usually warning you put on everything.Like do not take when pregnant. Or the gas problems turmeric can cause when taken in large dose's.It is just the usually stuff you put on everything.THis is not the case for drugs. THey have some terrible side effects like yellow skin and eyes and thoughts of suicides. As said in my prozac example above.While the side effects in plants are equal to the side effects in water.Water can cause diarrhea.The herb side effects are really nothing.This is not the case for drugs which have hundreds of side effects and stuff like yellow skin and eye's and other experimental mad scientist like stuff.The herbs side effects are just the normal concerns when doing anything
https://healthfully.com/water-causes-diarrhea-5695031.html

Natural health benefits
Con says that i have not gone in depth of the benefits of alternative medicine.But only did side effects of modern medicine this is not true



How to buy herbs
Con raised some concerns for buying herbs.Con said
"Additionally, using a store that sells  supplements to tell you why supplements are better than actual medicine  seems unwise."
This is not what i did. My sources come from other site's.The reason why i talked about health ranger store.Is because that is where i buy my herbs.Mike Adams is an activist turned scientist and he lab tests all his herbs for heavy metals.The articles i used in the last opening did not come from him.I did copy and paste what herb i have purchased from him though
https://www.healthrangerstore.com/

who
In cons opening.He talks about how i trash the world health organization as evil.But use the statistics that they post.The reason why is because the world health organization is one of the biggest medical organization.There statistics are usually true.This does not conflict with my believes that they are poisoning people.There symbol is snake and stick





Mushroom
Con talks about a mushroom derived drug called amoxicillin that helps. With sore throat.He makes it sound like they added stuff when they turned the mushroom into a drug.It does not do anything really amazing.I fail to see why this Drug that comes from a mushroom is better then lion mane mushrooms.He did not list any way they improved it by turning it into a drug.

"Plant medicines are far and away safer, gentler and better for human health than synthetic drugs."
http://www.medicinehunter.com/about-plant-medicines

Simple medicines.
Con goes on about easiness. Getting a drug for sprained leg and  healing it over time with a drug.Drug mushroom that helps with sore throat.But this easiness is the same with alternative stuff.Sage makes great sore throat medicine.
https://www.food.com/recipe/sage-mint-tea-for-sore-throats-and-more-431722






Herbs good for brain. prescription Drugs can not fix brain.This is clearly a herb only thing

  • Sweetflag can cure stuttering and stammering by repairing the brain.it is also good for amnesia
https://herbpathy.com/Uses-and-Benefits-of-Sweet-Flag-Cid435


  • Turmeric can repair motor skills and reverse brain damage done by schizophrenic medication.

"Additionally, turmeric’s antioxidants have been found to reverse the effects of damage caused by pharmaceuticals, particularly in the treatment of schizophrenia.  Commonly-prescribed antipsychotics often cause involuntary muscle  movements and severe behavioral changes. One study found that when  treated with curcumin, the effects of the motor disorder tardive  dyskinesia were reversed."

https://dailyhealthpost.com/turmeric-brain/



Herbal lore being proved to be true by study's. These herbs are more effective then prescription drugs.Most drugs only treat 1 condition.The plant of immortality treats over 50


"the plant of immortality” by the Ancient Egyptians, and treasured by  numerous subsequent cultures, aloe vera it still known today for its  many health benefits. For millennia it has been used to treat more than  50 medical conditions, from obesity to burns, dermatitis, ulcers,  asthma, diabetes, acne, and even leprosy."
The plant of immortality health benefits has been proven true thanks to modern science.It treats over 50 medical conditions.
https://www.ancient-origins.net/history/ancient-plant-immortality-treats-over-50-medical-conditions-007505

"17 proven benefits of aloe vera"

https://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/herbs-and-spices/health-benefits-of-aloe-vera.html
17 Proven Benefits & Uses of Aloe Vera{aka the plant of immortality}
  1. Improves Digestion

  2. Boosts Immunity


  3. Inhibits Cancerous Growth

  4. Heals Side Effects of Radiotherapy

  5. Skin Care

  6. Hair Care

  7. Reduces Arthritis Pain

  8. Heals Wounds
  9. Relieves Menstrual Discomfort
  10. Reduces Blood Sugar Level
  11. Prevents Oxidative Stress
  12. Soothes Acid Reflux
  13. Lowers Cholesterol
  14. Improves Cardiovascular Function
  15. Fight Gum Diseases
  16. Preserves Food
  17. Boosts Blood Oxygenation







Herbs surpass drugs in effectiveness.


  • Thunder god vine is more effective in treating arthritus then the prescription  drug called
      Sulfasalazine
  • Curcumin and saffron flowers are just as effective as prozac.But the herbs do not have 100 plus side effects

https://www.naturalnews.com/2020-01-27-thunder-god-vine-packed-with-health-benefits.html
https://universityhealthnews.com/daily/depression/2-natural-antidepressants-found-to-be-as-effective-as-prozac/










Return To Top | Posted:
2020-01-28 14:04:43
| Speak Round
GuitarKirbyGuitarKirby (CON)
My opponent's central argument seems to be that pharmaceuticals have side effects - Con doesn't dispute this, most medicines have side effects. However, my opponent has made a few fatal errors which I'd like to quickly cover.

1) Herbs don't have side effects!
Being that my opponent said this right before mentioning that turmeric causes gastrointestinal problems when taken at medical dosages I'm not sure even they believe it. The problem here is that approved drugs are required by law to list side effects. Alternative medicine, which isn't regulated by the FDA or really any other official body has no such requirements. Therefore my opponent can yell and scream to the heavens about the side effects of prescription drugs (regardless of their rarity, which my opponent has conveniently ignored), and go on pretending that there are few or no side effects to taking herbal remedies at medical dosages. This is especially easy to do when using the outrageously biased sources my opponent has listed. Speaking of which...

2) Your sources are evil (even though I used one too)!
My opponent's attempts at vilifying the governmental bodies in charge of regulating healthcare are both hypocritical and foolish. You cannot discredit a source and use it in the same speech, it's completely ludicrous. If the statistics from the WHO are accurate then they are a trustworthy source, and nothing else needs to be said. Why are we even discussing this topic in the first place? My opponent literally used a website whose only job is to tout the benefits of turmeric - as biased as you could possibly get.

3) Herbal remedies and prescription drugs derived from herbs are the same!
Amoxicillin was the example used here. Let me clarify something to my opponent; Penicillin is not used to relieve a sore throat. I get a sore throat with a cold or flu as well but I don't take an antibiotic for it. Penicillin-based drugs are used for attacking bacterial infections, ending disease at the source. Antibiotics are not symptom treatment, which is one of the major differentiators between herbal remedy and actual medicine. When you take herbal remedies you are trying to treat a symptom; when you take antibiotics, antivirals, antidepressants, etc., you are attacking the root cause. It isn't about ease of care; either, it's about efficacy.

Quick-Fire Round
- Drugs in testing environments don't have their side effects listed - saffron and curcumin may or may not have side effects that are not listed in the abstract of a medical study

- Sample size matters in testing - studies done on herbal remedies are often too small to be scaled up (the study on saffron only had a sample size of 40 people)

- Aloe Vera is not alternative medicine when used as burn treatment, and does have side effects including itchy/burning skin, liver problems, and blood sugar issues like hypoglycemia1

- Thunder God Vine has side effects, including missed menstrual periods, vomiting/diarrhea, kidney problems, and weakened bones (especially bad for those with osteoporosis). Taking it while pregnant may cause birth defects2

- Calamus/Sweet Flag is far from safe. Taken by mouth, it can cause kidney damage, shaking, seizures, and contains the carcinogen beta-isoasarone3

The Point
Having this discussion is proving fruitless because Pro doesn't seem to understand the resolution or my arguments. To clarify, the point of bringing up the experience of taking amoxicillin in the first round was to state unequivocally that Con agrees that herbs and herb-based drugs can be effective treatment. Pro wants to fight about this for some reason, but personally I'm very confused, because they have listed several drugs (like Aloe Vera) that are accepted and widely used in standard care. Remember that my opponent is supposed to prove that alternative medicine is more effective than standard care, which makes it odd that they are trying to win points for treatments included in standard care.

Pretending that herbal remedies have no side effects is downright foolish, and my opponent all but gave up the ghost on this argument after they admitted the gastrointestinal side effects of taking turmeric - even very favorable studies report this, along with headache and yellow stool4. I'm not sure why my opponent is happy to give this a pass and not standard pharmaceuticals, but it sounds like special pleading to me.

The effectiveness of standard care has been demonstrated over years of testing and regulation. My opponent conveniently ignored my statements about the effectiveness of vaccines, probably because they have no such record of any alternative medicine having such a sweeping and immediate impact on global health. They are certainly welcome to continue ignoring it, but the statistics will be exceptionally difficult to overcome. They've also ignored the examples of standard care that don't even include drugs, likely because if they were to address those arguments, their one (admittedly flimsy) argument would fall apart, that being that herbs are better than pharmaceuticals.

1) https://www.rxlist.com/consumer_aloe/drugs-condition.htm#what_are_side_effects_of_aloe
2) https://www.rxlist.com/thunder_god_vine/supplements.htm
3) https://www.rxlist.com/calamus/supplements.htm
4) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5664031/

Return To Top | Posted:
2020-01-28 19:42:28
| Speak Round
crossedcrossed (PRO)
Con does not seem to understand the difference between the general  risk of doing anything and side effects from lab grown drugs.

Herbs are as harmless as water

side effects of celery



"Bleeding disorder: There is concern that celery might increase
the risk of bleeding when used in medicinal amounts. Don't use celery if
you have a bleeding disorder."




"Kidney problems: Don't use celery in medicinal amounts if you have kidney problems. Celery might cause inflammation."

https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-882/celery




Side effects of banana


"Side effects to banana are rare but may include bloating, gas, cramping,  softer stools, nausea, and vomiting. "
https://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-1595-BANANA.aspx



Side effects of eating plums



"When taken by mouth: Plum is LIKELY SAFE when taken in amounts normally found in foods. It is POSSIBLY SAFE when taken in amounts used as medicine for up to 12 months. Plum might cause stomach issues like gas and diarrhea. If dried plums or pits are swallowed whole, they might block the movement of food through the stomach and intestines. Some people are allergic to plums."
https://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-1594-PLUM.aspx


ginger side effects

"Ginger can cause mild side effects including heartburn, diarrhea, and general stomach discomfort. Some women have reported extra menstrual bleeding while taking ginger."
https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-961/ginger


This is bs.This is just the general risk of doing anything.My turmeric is as dangerous as water. jasmine tea is as dangerous as water.My chamomile tea is as dangerous as water. My reishi mushroom from the health ranger store.They are as dangerous as water.My ginseng is as dangerous as water.
This is not the case for prescription drugs.



Side effect info
  • "American patients also suffer from about 80 million mild side effects a year,"
https://ethics.harvard.edu/blog/risky-drugs-why-fda-cannot-be-trusted

  • "Every  year, more than 2 million Americans suffer from serious adverse drug  reactions. According to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA),  these reactions cause about 100,000 deaths per year, making prescription  drugs the fourth-leading cause of death in the country."
   https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2008/04/12/the-terrifying-side-effects-of-prescription-drugs.aspx


Con confuses the supposed  side effects in plums banana water and my beloved herbs  with this.Just because someone threw up while drinking water does not mean that is a side effect of water.Just because someone got diarrhea from a plum does not make it a side effect of eating plumbs.Just because people threw up after eating the insane amount of 2000 mg of turmeric. does not make it a side effect.Who the the hell eats 2000 mg of turmeric.I would throw up if i ate 2000 mg of turmeric. Who the hell eats 2000 mg of turmeric.If i throw up from drinking water is that a side effect of water?Literally this propaganda says that turmeric is dangerous because someone shoved 2000 mg of the stuff and threw up.Lol who the hell eats 2000 mg of turmeric.turmeric is a spice used on curry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJwiR3uj6w8


Con confuse harmless herbs with this. Con can only find a couple supposed side effects in plants while prescription drugs have hundreds of side effects.Herbs are still superior.

prozac

  1. Hives, itching, or skin rash

  2. inability to sit still

  3. restlessness

Less common



  1. Chills or fever

  2. joint or muscle pain

Rare



  1. Anxiety

  2. cold sweats

  3. confusion

  4. convulsions (seizures)

  5. cool pale skin

  6. diarrhea

  7. difficulty with concentration

  8. drowsiness

  9. dryness of the mouth

  10. lack of energy

  11. mood or behavior changes

  12. overactive reflexes

  13. purple or red spots on the skin

  14. racing heartbeat

  15. shakiness or unsteady walk

  16. shivering or shaking

  17. talking, feeling, and acting with excitement and activity you cannot control

  18. trouble with breathing

  19. unusual or incomplete body or facial movements

  20. unusual tiredness or weakness

Incidence not known



  1. Abdominal or stomach pain

  2. agitation

  3. back or leg pains

  4. bleeding gums

  5. blindness

  6. blistering, peeling, or loosening of the skin

  7. bloating

  8. blood in the urine or stools

  9. bloody, black or tarry stools

  10. blue-yellow color blindness

  11. blurred vision

  12. chest pain or discomfort

  13. clay-colored stools

  14. constipation

  15. continuing vomiting

  16. cough or dry cough

  17. dark urine

  18. decreased urine output

  19. decreased vision

  20. depression

  21. difficulty with breathing

  22. difficulty with swallowing

  23. dizziness or lightheadedness

  24. eye pain

  25. fainting

  26. fast, pounding, or irregular heartbeat or pulse

  27. general body swelling

  28. high fever

  29. hives, itching, puffiness or swelling of the eyelids or around the eyes, face, lips, or tongue

  30. hostility

  31. nausea

  32. nightmares


  33. painful, red lumps under the skin, mostly on the legs

  34. pains in the stomach, side, or abdomen, possibly radiating to the back

  35. pinpoint red spots on the skin

  36. rapid weight gain

  37. red or irritated eyes

  38. red skin lesions, often with a purple center

  39. redness, tenderness, itching, burning, or peeling of the skin

  40. severe muscle stiffness

  41. severe sleepiness

  42. unpleasant breath odor

  43. unusual bleeding or bruising

  44. unusual drowsiness, dullness, tiredness, weakness, or feeling of sluggishness

  45. unusually pale skin

  46. use of extreme physical or emotional force

  47. vomiting of blood

  48. yellow eyes or skin
https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/fluoxetine-oral-route/side-effects/drg-20063952

I have to cut it off not enough room.Con confuses this with the side effect in a plum.



Sources

on a wall of a thousand year old building is a picture of what looks like a dinosaur.
The problem is according to evolution dinosaurs did not exist at the same time as humans.

20110520083121temple-stegosaurus-rhinoceros-300x252.jpg

So according to the Smithsonian this is not a stegosaurus but a rino with leaves around it.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/stegosaurus-rhinoceros-or-hoax-40387948/
We should not believe this.
But if the Smithsonian say something like Abraham Lincoln was president.Then they should be believed.This is the kind of relationship i have with World Health Organization or mayo clinic.




Vaccines
I realized that i forgot this one and the 80 percent of the world use herbs point in my last rebuttal.But given you ignored my herb more effective then drugs and the power of herbs argument and finally the big pharma has to spend millions to get there dangerous drugs become legal.We should be even.It is actually a lie that vaccines eradicated polio.The disease was already on a decline.Before the disease came into existence.It is a myth.Giving kids 72 harmful vaccines Is terrible.There immune system is not even developed.How can they even handle one shot.These shot have aborted babies in them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lMBzHLB704
https://www.facebook.com/learntherisk/posts/2142169509161601



80 percent of the world use's herbs.

con claims that the reason why people use plats for medicine is because they do not have big pharma.This is untrue.
For example in many 3rd world country's have big pharma medicine.But people rather use herbs as medicine.This has resulted in big pharma spending millions of money to make Wormwood illegal and spread lie's about the plant. For example people were using Wormwood in this video.People are using Wormwood to treat malaria.People rather use the plant then the pharmaceutical.That is why 80 percent of the world use plants.They have pharmaceuticals they just do not want to use them.That is why big pharma spends millions to make the plant illegal.
There reason why these people prefer the plant wormwood for malaria over vaccines and drugs.Is because the plant is better.The reason why big pharma banned the plant is because it is better.People would use it over there drugs.









Dropped point
Herbs do a lot of things pharmaceutical can not.Like turmeric can reverse brain damage done by schizophrenic medication.
Sweet flag can cure stuttering
Basil can dissolve kidney stones.IF your kidney stones been dissolved you have been cured.
Herbs can cure you of disease.I can only think of one drug that can cure

Dropped point.Herb superiority.

Thunder god vine is more effective in treating arthritis then the prescription drug called
Sulfasalazine

https://www.naturalnews.com/2020-01-27-thunder-god-vine-packed-with-health-benefits.html



Herbal derived drugs are not the same thing as the herb.For example the kratom drug version is insanely toxic.


"University say that the properties of this herb are similar to opium and
the same cell receptors are involved in both cases. However, it is a
better choice when the concern is the side effects of the product. In comparison with opiates, there are no such devastating side effects from the use of the herb."
https://www.wekratom.com/pain-killers-derived-from-kratom/

The kratom derived drug has devastating side effects.While the normal kratom has no such devastating side effects.




After reading a couple hundred study on plants.

 turmeric can reverse damage done by schizophrenic medication.
 monk fruit can stop insulin resistant
 sweet-flag can cure stuttering and amnesia
 basil can dissolve kidney stone.After reading thousands of articles like  this. I am thoroughly convinced God put medicine in plants for all  disease that exist you can not shake my believe in that.




Miracle Tree & Plants That Cures 300 Diseases And Kills 98% Of Cancer Cells IN 16 Hours!



"There is one plant that many scientists  have claimed to be a cure with such a high potential that it eliminates  98% of cancer cells within 16 hours.
 Namely, according to a research published in “Life Science”, Artemisinin – an ingredient found in Sweet Wormwood,"


https://www.mydailyinformer.com/miracle-tree-plants-that-cures-300-diseases-and-kills-98-of-cancer-cells-in-16-hours/



Return To Top | Posted:
2020-02-02 14:55:28
| Speak Round
GuitarKirbyGuitarKirby (CON)
It's beginning to get silly talking about the same things over and over again. My opponent decided to talk about exactly one kind of alternative medicine for the entire debate and continues to be wrong about it, and has even admitted such. Let's take quick stock.

1) Pro says that herbs have no side effects, then lists side effects of taking herbs in medicinal doses. I'm not sure what their point was here, but let's take just one example. "Don't take celery if you have a bleeding disorder." This is a listed condition of many pharmaceuticals used in standard care. It certainly isn't "as harmless as water," which can cause issues if you drink too much but isn't known to enhance kidney disease.

2) The Harvard source lists mild side effects. Gastrointestinal problems, such as those associated with many herbal remedies, would qualify. My opponent never once declared what counted as a side effect in their mind, but continues to insist that pharmaceutical drugs have many while herbs have none. The shifting of goalposts and special pleading is so rampant with my opponent it's honestly difficult to understand how they could ever make a point. Further, the idea of "adverse drug reactions" includes people with allergies to certain medicines. I'm allergic to plums, to a point that they cause my airways to shut down - do they now count as a failed remedy because of my sensitivity?

3) My opponent is inconsistent in their sources and has admitted in the final round that they are cherry-picking data from sources based on their presuppositions. It may be that Pro doesn't realize that this is dishonest, but I think the judges are likely aware.

4) We've finally come to the question of vaccines, where once again Pro has used biased and unreliable sources to back up their statement. Vaccines have had a massive success rate, and I refer to the CDC record posted in Round 2.

5) In what may be the biggest blunder of this whole debate, my opponent has begun talking about the derivations of drugs from plants being toxic compared to the herbs themselves. The reason for this is obvious; the active, medicinal parts of plants have powerful side effects when isolated and taken in medicinal dosages. Again, a tacit admission that my opponent's side-effect argument is double-edged at best and toothless at worst. 

6) In one last attempt to introduce yet another herbal remedy to the argument, my opponent brings up artemisinin, found in Wormwood. Nevermind that to be effective it has to be derived from the herb, but where it has been used as a treatment for Malaria, it has had to be slowed thanks to the fact that certain strains of the disease have begun to become resistant to it, as with many antibiotic drugs (also derived from herbs)1.

To conclude: My opponent has failed to make their case, and has made so many logical fallacies that it's difficult to keep track of their argument in the first place, much less find it compelling. They have presented poor evidence in favor of the resolution and have even made statements that negate and refute it, effectively doing Con's job for me.

Standard medical care is tested, proven, and functional. Herbal remedies and other forms of alternative care are not, by definition. There is no conceivable way in which the resolution can be said to accurately portray reality and should be voted down. 

1) https://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2006/pr02/en/
 

Return To Top | Posted:
2020-02-06 20:43:16
| Speak Round


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crossedcrossed
I was mostly responding to the plagiarism claim.Was only going to respond to the plagiarism claim because of the reason you gave.Then i saw the comment he made down there and i responded to that two
Posted 2020-02-08 09:29:21
crossedcrossed
guitarkirby ok
Posted 2020-02-08 09:23:08
GuitarKirbyGuitarKirby
@crossed, the debate is over. If you want to argue the point again, you are welcome to submit a new resolution. If you want to respond to a judgement then do it in the judging tab. Kinda uncool to come into the comments and yell at everyone.
Posted 2020-02-08 03:43:30
crossedcrossed
dpowell I eat turmeric bought from the health ranger daily no side effects.I eat banana no side effects. I eat apple no side effects.
Posted 2020-02-08 03:41:05
crossedcrossed
" there are no plants that can cure anything"


tell that to the people cured of malaria by sweet worm wood.While big pharma try's to banned the plant


Time stamps
https://youtu.be/OvC4uSYprU8?t=668





Posted 2020-02-08 03:32:31
crossedcrossed
dpowell3543Do you know what a quotation mark means. I did not do plagiarism
Posted 2020-02-08 03:16:19
dpowell3543dpowell3543
@GuitarKirby Maybe not, but it sure helps. Forfeiting is never good, even if the arguments are repetitive.
Posted 2020-02-07 05:54:13
GuitarKirbyGuitarKirby
@dpowell3543 Well, I made my final arguments. I'm not entirely sure it matters - it's basically the same refutations made throughout.
Posted 2020-02-06 20:45:01
dpowell3543dpowell3543
Well you're close on that remark Trainhammer. They weren't using Kingsfoil to ease the pain though, they were using it to try to slow the poison down. At least long enough to get him to Rivendell. Anyway. Crossed. Again with the turmeric. Given the sources you've used, that's just theory. Not proven. So far, any attempt to use turmeric to help anything will cause more harm than good as your opponent pointed out. Please note, there are no plants that can cure anything. They can help treat some select symptoms of ailments, but only medication can truly cure the ailment. In all seriousness though. You use the same arguments in every debate and you, in turn, lose those debates. Don't you think that means there's something wrong with your arguments? Though, you'll probably end up winning this one if GuitarKirby doesn't hurry up and post his final arguments.
Posted 2020-02-06 18:39:28
crossedcrossed
Admin Thank you.
Posted 2020-02-02 14:55:52
adminadmin
Removed a glitched comment :)
Posted 2020-02-01 05:45:02
crossedcrossed
The thing glitched and posted twice.idk what happened
Posted 2020-01-31 11:03:54
crossedcrossed
dpowell3563

if there is no medicine in plants then how can they they interact with medicine.
A drug interaction is when a drug medicine interacts with with the medicine in a herb.
How can a herb interact with prescription medication if there is no medicine in it.

After reading a couple hundred study on plants.

turmeric can reverse damage done by schizophrenic medication.


monk fruit can stop insulin resistant

sweet-flag can cure stuttering and amnesia

basil can dissolve kidney stone.After reading thousands of articles like this. I am thoroughly convinced god put medicine in plants for all disease that exist you can not shake my believe in that.




Trainhammer

what gave it away.Half of my debates are called prescription medication is poison.Was it me talking about how they create disease on plum island.What it me saying the goverment poison our food.1 in 59 children are born with autism.the average babies is born with over 200 man made chemicals.Let say the goverment wants to band guns.So they can kill us.They will hire some crisis actors Shoot some schools up and say think of the children.Lets say the goverment want to banned cars.so they can coral you in the city.They will say.self driving cars have a 0 percent chance of any accidents.While if humans drive cars there is 3 million car crashes each year. You are a dangerous person to drive a car.It should be illegal.So they use this reasoning to banned cars.so they can coral you into the city. lets say the goverment want to poison the food supply.They will say something like there are bugs we must put poison on the food to kill the bugs.We must make food last longer we need to add preservatives.Then they will say it was an accident that 8 million IQ points have been lost due to pesticides on food.Let's say the goverment want to poison our water.They will say.People have dirty teeth lets put fluoride in the water to dumb them down.But say we are doing it for dental hygiene. Let say they want to poison everyone with vaccines.They will say you harm other people if your not vaccinated.You re a danger to other's and can give them virus.It is not your choice to be vaccinated.You can not risk other peoples death over your own freedom.You only strengthen that what we say is true when your favorite tv show host.Like jimmy kimmel mocks conspiracy theorist and anti vaxxers.Throw a liberal tantrum i don't care.


There is no side effects to my green tea nor my chamomile or my monk fruit or my ginseng or my staint johns warts or my turmeric.There may be some heavy metals.But that is no side effects. It is like how people are treating malaria with a plant in many country's and big pharma spends millions to make the plant legal.So they can not treat themselfs.Then sells there poison as medicine to everyone. there is no side effects to my monk fruit.Just like there are no side effects to an apple.The only different is people do not know what a monk fruit is and big pharma can make it sound super scary and say It can cause liver damage and or something else.It is all bullshit of course.There are no side effects to Jasmin tea there is no side effects to chamomile or saffron tea.I is all BS.There are no side effects to an orange.It s propaganda designed to scare you.I do not know what lord of the rings.But it they lived back then standard care would be more herbs. Stop being a goat and or a sheep and become a lone wolf like myself
Posted 2020-01-31 11:02:30
TrainhammerTrainhammer
Crossed is an anti-vaxer confirmed. Liberal or conservative has no relevance to medicine in this case either. Both have potential side effects, however Standard Practice is more effective for treating ailments and injuries permanently. I am a Boy Scout and am Wilderness Survival trained. We don't use herbal tea to help stem bleeding from a puncture wound.

A good comparison is surprisingly Lord of the Rings. When Frodo is stabbed with a poison dagger, they use a medical plant called kingsfoil to relieve the pain. But this is a pain reliever to help keep Frodo alive until he reaches Rivendell and the proper healing needed I.E Standard care. Frodo still nearly dies on the banks of the Ford on the edge of Rivendell.

Sure, plants can be good to help, as we are on a thing called Earth, but it doesn't trump actual medicine.
Posted 2020-01-30 15:45:50
dpowell3543dpowell3543
Because it's not. I've already proven this. Nothing you say is true or backed by scientific studies. There's no valid evidence to support your claim. That's why you lost our debate in the first place.
Posted 2020-01-27 05:02:50
crossedcrossed
Dpowell3543.Your not a brainwashed liberal.Why do you not see the obvious poisoning of medicine.I thought it was more obvious then that they poison our food.I out of 59 children are born with autism because they poison food with chemicals and pesticides.They lie and say it is to keep our food to last longer or to keep bugs off.The average baby is born with more than 200 man made chemicals.
Posted 2020-01-23 13:27:32
crossedcrossed
Yes.I did not create this debate though
Posted 2020-01-23 12:21:00
dpowell3543dpowell3543
Are you gonna talk about plants again?
Posted 2020-01-22 05:34:32
The judging period on this debate is over

Previous Judgments

2020-02-07 01:02:36
dpowell3543Judge: dpowell3543    TOP JUDGE
Win awarded to: GuitarKirby
Reasoning:
After having followed this debate from the beginning, it's clear that the vote must go to Con. Pro's arguments were extremely poor, filled with contradictions, biased/unreliable sources, plagiarism and out right false information. A lot of their arguments were also clearly cherry picked. Their arguments were also way off topic for the most part, which is never good in any debate. Con, however, had much better arguments. Their arguments were well formated and they easily debunked all of pro's arguments. Very well done.

Feedback:
crossed- work on the spelling and grammar. Stop cherry picking. Do some actual research and make actual arguments. That will help out a lot. Also you have to stop copying and pasting sections of your sources. Plagiarism is never okay. Stay on topic, stop repeating the same arguments and last but not least, work on formatting. The way you do your arguments all spaced apart isn't pretty. I know you could do really well, you just need to put in the effort.

GuitarKirby- Good job. My only recommendation for you would be to maybe add some extra arguments next time. That way, you can at least offer the chance for your opponent to get back on topic, or at least add something new to the table. If they ignore it, that's a win for you.
1 user rated this judgement as constructive
2 comments on this judgement
crossedcrossed
I did not plagiarism.I used quotation marks.Which means they are quotes.The pictures are not plagiarism either.The pictures have the web address in which they came from on them.
Posted 2020-02-08 09:37:49
dpowell3543dpowell3543
Since you never stated that you were quoting anything, they are plagiarised. Quotation marks only mean something of you've directly stated that you are quoting something.
Posted 2020-02-08 16:37:18
2020-02-16 17:25:14
RadeCrowJudge: RadeCrow
Win awarded to: GuitarKirby

Rules of the debate

  • Text debate
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  • 3 rounds
  • 10000 characters per round
  • No reply speeches
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  • Permissive Judging Standard (notes)
  • Forfeiting rounds does not mean forfeiting the debate
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  • Time to post: 5 days
  • Time to vote: 3 weeks
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Definitions from MedicineNet:
"Standard care is what medical doctors, doctors of osteopathy, and allied health professionals, such as nurses and physical therapists, practice."
"Alternative medicine is the term for medical products and practices that are not part of standard care."
Pro must prove that, under this definition, alternative medicine solutions offer greater effectiveness than standard care solutions.
Con takes on BoP for the antithesis (that standard medicine has better effectiveness than alternative solutions).